Breaking Structure

[futsaowingchun]

In this short clip I show how by manipulating the human spine is the key to controlling and breaking the opponents structure. Two concepts are used to break structure. One is hand to pocket and two hand to shoulder. In order to break the opponents structure the spine must be manipulated horizontally or vertically in order to take place.

 

[Phobius]

Have you considered that he might move his feet instead of breaking his own posture? You can allow your hand to remain in his control, it feels like you want to keep your arm stiff in his hold at the end when demonstrating that your footwork will not work efficiently. Tend to disagree since it works as long as you dont break your own posture beforehand.

As for grabbing a punch, daring.

Do you have some reason to believe that breaking of posture is actually necessary at this point? Feels like a training drill that might teach bad habits. Not saying it does since me personally attempt at all times to avoid such posture failure.

 

[PiedmontChun]

I think I can appreciate the concept shown. Forming a bridge that can negatively affect the opponent's balance or posture is good and creating advantageous angle for you. We often send our Wu Sau forward and control the opponent's shoulder area / upper arm in conjunction with a Lop Sau and step. If done right, it either jams the opponent up or forces them to step away from you to try and re-face.

To Phobius criticism, I guess I would question if you teach this as something to seek out opportunities to do, or to utilize in particular situations where your opponent gives you the opportunity such as with an overcommitted punch, failed to retract their punch quickly enough, etc?

Also, I am curious. Where do you take a student from this point in terms of counter or how to deal with this? Say, if he shifts while using a forceful Gan Sau movement to either break your grip on his wrist or remove it as an obstruction in order to strike you, then what?

 

[geezer]

Good video. Nicely framed this time, beautiful scenery, you've got the cool shades on, and the black vest with the collar up looks good. And black is slimming!

---says the guy that just split another pair of pants yesterday . Oh well, at our age we deserve to show a bit of our ...er ..."prosperity"

Anyway, I also like uprooting and disrupting our opponent's center of gravity. I just would like to emphasize the importance of doing this while exerting forward pressure directed along centerline. Pushing wide of center or laterally can leave you open to a nasty counter by people with good root, pivot and steps. Also pressing down forcefully on someone's arm can create a pulling-in effect that may leave you vulnerable. For example at 0:45, your student could maintain his structure by letting his left arm bend, absorbing the pressure and redirecting your force. Should he fail at this, he has another option seen at 0:48 (and similarly at at 1:55) where it looks like your downward/across pul on his arm is leaving you vulnerable to a nasty downward shoulder punch to the solar plexus.

A lot of people execute the shoulder punch dipping and rising, but the quicker, harder downward version can put a guy through the wall. I actually witnessed my old sifu knock my si-dei Robert through a hotel room wall with this technique. We were all very amused, but hotel management was not.

Shoulder punch 8:45-8:55

BTW here's my previously mentioned si-dei on another day taking abuse from my old sifu. For what it's worth, he said it got even worse when he travelled and did demos with Emin!!! ...and I know he loved every minute of it.

http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mjrCTbt416yjlvNPWXbYOQw.jpg


Now back to the topic. If, on the other hand if you pull the arm laterally too strongly "toward his pocket", a skilled opponent may borrow that force and use a lateral "falling leaf step" and pivot to let an unwary or overcommitted attacker fall onto his punch. Some WT practitioners, especially those familiar with EWTO curriculum may recognize this from their Lat Sau drills (Lat Sau 3 in our curriculum).

Mind you, this is not a dismissal of your main point. Just a note that every attack, especially if done with excess, may leave you open to a counter. Except, of course, when you are better than the other guy. Then you can mess around with impunity. ....God I hate it when my seniors do that to me!

 

[futsaowingchun]

Have you considered that he might move his feet instead of breaking his own posture? You can allow your hand to remain in his control, it feels like you want to keep your arm stiff in his hold at the end when demonstrating that your footwork will not work efficiently. Tend to disagree since it works as long as you dont break your own posture beforehand.

As for grabbing a punch, daring.

Do you have some reason to believe that breaking of posture is actually necessary at this point? Feels like a training drill that might teach bad habits. Not saying it does since me personally attempt at all times to avoid such posture failure.

If you noticed at the end of the video I explained how you have to move your feet .

 

[geezer]

If you noticed at the end of the video I explained how you have to move your feet .

Yep. Most movements do have counters, if done in time. We will be looking forward to the video.

 

[futsaowingchun]

I think I can appreciate the concept shown. Forming a bridge that can negatively affect the opponent's balance or posture is good and creating advantageous angle for you. We often send our Wu Sau forward and control the opponent's shoulder area / upper arm in conjunction with a Lop Sau and step. If done right, it either jams the opponent up or forces them to step away from you to try and re-face.

To Phobius criticism, I guess I would question if you teach this as something to seek out opportunities to do, or to utilize in particular situations where your opponent gives you the opportunity such as with an overcommitted punch, failed to retract their punch quickly enough, etc?

Also, I am curious. Where do you take a student from this point in terms of counter or how to deal with this? Say, if he shifts while using a forceful Gan Sau movement to either break your grip on his wrist or remove it as an obstruction in order to strike you, then what?

I think I can appreciate the concept shown. Forming a bridge that can negatively affect the opponent's balance or posture is good and creating advantageous angle for you. We often send our Wu Sau forward and control the opponent's shoulder area / upper arm in conjunction with a Lop Sau and step. If done right, it either jams the opponent up or forces them to step away from you to try and re-face.

To Phobius criticism, I guess I would question if you teach this as something to seek out opportunities to do, or to utilize in particular situations where your opponent gives you the opportunity such as with an overcommitted punch, failed to retract their punch quickly enough, etc?

Also, I am curious. Where do you take a student from this point in terms of counter or how to deal with this? Say, if he shifts while using a forceful Gan Sau movement to either break your grip on his wrist or remove it as an obstruction in order to strike you, then what?

I was planning to make a follow up to this video go go more into details. The main thing to remeber is any technique can be countered and the counter can be countered also. It just depends on your skilllevel .If your much better then your oppoenent he is not likey to counter you,and it will be easy to counter him. you will always be one step ahead.

 

[Jake104]

Can you put a bigger guy in the video next time please? At least 300lbs or more? JK!

Disruption is good. I would just ad, I'm not I fan of pushing the opponent away or allowing him the chance to step back. Mainly cause I don't want to chase him around. I'd rather disrupt or break his structure while weighting one of his legs. In essence planting him in that spot while I punch and/or, sweep and toss him on his head. Steve/ Geezer mentioned uprooting. That works great too, again as long as I'm not pushing my opponent away, but instead using uprooting to break the spine and weight a leg. If I was the little guy in vid and I got pushed or step back, I'd use that opportunity to adjust and regain my structure and possibly take yours. But.....If my weight was planted on one leg, it would be much more difficult for me to achieve.

 

[guy b.]

Why are you grabbing the arms of your opponent and not hitting him in the face?

 

[Danny T]

Probably because he is demonstrating Breaking and Controlling the Opponent's Structure and not demonstrating punching the opponent's face. Believe it on not there is more within WC than just hitting the face.

 

[guy b.]

Wing chun is about hitting. Not about chasing hands

 

[Danny T]

Yea and we never Lop either.

 

[JPinAZ]

Lop sau is not chasing hands. It's a method for clearing obstructions while effecting our opponent's COG & facing. But from there our goal isn't to continue to hold, it is to clear the line so we can strike

 

[PiedmontChun]

Sweeps, throws, locks, grabs..... all contained in the forms whether you want to see it or not.

 

[Danny T]

Lop sau is not chasing hands. It's a method for clearing obstructions while effecting our opponent's COG & facing. But from there our goal isn't to continue to hold, it is to clear the line so we can strike

Correct but it does clear the barrier AND breaks the structure just as redirecting the opponent's arm across the body does.

 

[guy b.]

If you are close enough to sweep, throw, lock and grab, then you are close enough to punch. Why then would you sweep, lock, throw, grab?

If you can't just hit then there is nothing wrong with sweeping a leg to allow a hit, disrupting balance with a lop or a stance ram to allow a hit. But grabbing hold or locking a joint? This is chasing hands. Why not just hit?

I have seen "joint lock" applications from Biu Ji and Chum Kiu. Suffice to say that these are obviously a waste of time and effort to anyone who has trained in an actual grappling MA. You need to be on the ground to be locking joints in a high % way.

I think most of these applications are just misunderstandings of the form (in my opinion). I want to believe that wing chun is not a crock of sh1t you see?

 

[guy b.]

Correct but it does clear the barrier AND breaks the structure just as redirecting the opponent's arm across the body does.

Nothing wrong with clearing the way to hit and/or breaking the balance to hit. Good wing chun, as long as the hit is the goal

 

[Jake104]

Wing chun is about hitting. Not about chasing hands

Punching someone who is resisting and who is GOOD. Is not as easy as you make it out to be. So WC is more than not chasing hands and punching. WC is 'chasing' and controlling COG as to clear the line and disrupt, then punch. While maybe throwing in a good angle

When you come to AZ . I'll bring you down to our gym in Tempe and you can just 'punch' with some real DTE boxers? Without the above mentioned WC skill set, my money will be on the boxer every time. Sorrweee!

 

[guy b.]

Punching someone who is resisting and who is GOOD. Is not as easy as you make it out to be. So WC is more than not chasing hands and punching. WC is 'chasing' and controlling COG as to clear the line and disrupt, then punch. While maybe throwing in a good angle

When you come to AZ . I'll bring you down to our gym in Tempe and you can just 'punch' with some real DTE boxers? Without the above mentioned WC skill set, my money will be on the boxer every time. Sorrweee!

Wing chun is about imposing control so that you can punch, I agree. This is done by pressuring with the stance, cutting the way, clearing the arms, disrupting the balance, and so on. But the goal is always to punch.

Sparring with boxers is not a new thing for me and I am aware of the difficulties involved. Whoever said hard work would be easy?

 

[Jake104]

Wing chun is about imposing control so that you can punch, I agree. This is done by pressuring with the stance, cutting the way, clearing the arms, disrupting the balance, and so on. But the goal is always to punch.

Sparring with boxers is not a new thing for me and I am aware of the difficulties involved. Whoever said hard work would be easy?

Ok, so we are not to far off in our opinions of what WC or reality is. Great!