Boxing is great! A senior BB at my school was an accomplished boxer. He tried to get me involved in Golden Gloves but it just wasn't my thing. The only criticism I have about boxing is the they don't condition their hands enough. Broken hands are way too common, every boxer I knew had at least one break. If you combined boxing with TMA hand conditioning you be one dangerous man.
Boxing
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
The hand wraps and gloves let you swing a LOT harder than normal. Ive hit bags bare handed and I cant imagine hitting it as hard as I do when wrapped/gloved...ouch!
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
I believe they use them more for training purposes (muscular/endurance) than anything else.
searcher
Senior Master
The reason I use mine is, I don't have to pull punches as much as when I use lighter gloves. Nothing worse than fighting and you have the bad habit of pulling your punches.
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
Man, my knuckles are starting to ache, even through the wraps and gloves. And im no stranger to punching things. Im finding that the boxing hand protection removes some inhibitions to hard swinging I didnt know I had. When you are barehanded you my think you are not holding back, but you probably are.
meth18au
Blue Belt
The 14oz gloves are heavy enough for my shoulders to feel like concrete LOL
Maybe I should invest in a pair of these big boys, it'd probably be beneficial to me!
For now, since I'm not actually participating in the sporting end of boxing, I think I'll keep practicing the techniques and strategies, but stick with my karate gloves, or practice with nothing.
My reasoning:
Pro "Light hands": While practicing with heavy gloves, your body mechanics to generate speed and power will be slightly different. For me, I'll use my shoulders more, for one thing that I know of, probably other subtle changes as well.
One of the things I know I have to work on (a lot) is not telegraphing my movement, and moving as efficiently as possible. So, If I practice with "light hands" I'll be training my body how best to move in that configuration, which is how I will be using it. One of my biggest "tells" that I'm throwing anything is that my shoulders start to lead, or my head leads slightly (not enough to present a target, but enough to give my attack away.)
Meanwhile, I still practice the basic attack combinations, and the "never say die" mentality that is so crucial to boxing, and so often overlooked in karate.
Pros for "heavy hands": I do know how effective it is to practice with heavier gloves, then when you take them off, you feel like you're weightless. Compared to the gloves, now you're lightening fast. Your muscles are better able to handle the endurance, and blasts of power, and you're mentally toughened to go longer.
Conclusion: For me, at this stage in my training, I think I will continue with little/no weight. I already have some of the fastest jabs/hands in my dojo, and I credit that to a lot of work on the speed bag, and double-ended bag. (The light ones that will come around and hit you in the face if your guard drops. Lotsa fun!) I can also generate a good amount of power in my hits, and I don't want to train my hands to be dependent on padding, but to know my own limits.
If I am going to be hitting faster, I want it to be because I am throwing technically correct punches, not punches using stronger muscles. At this point, I'm not connected with a boxing coach who can help me do both.
But, I do credit a lot of my most useful fighting skills to my start in both boxing, and as a pint-sized football lineman.
I think boxing is severely under-rated these days.
My reasoning:
Pro "Light hands": While practicing with heavy gloves, your body mechanics to generate speed and power will be slightly different. For me, I'll use my shoulders more, for one thing that I know of, probably other subtle changes as well.
One of the things I know I have to work on (a lot) is not telegraphing my movement, and moving as efficiently as possible. So, If I practice with "light hands" I'll be training my body how best to move in that configuration, which is how I will be using it. One of my biggest "tells" that I'm throwing anything is that my shoulders start to lead, or my head leads slightly (not enough to present a target, but enough to give my attack away.)
Meanwhile, I still practice the basic attack combinations, and the "never say die" mentality that is so crucial to boxing, and so often overlooked in karate.
Pros for "heavy hands": I do know how effective it is to practice with heavier gloves, then when you take them off, you feel like you're weightless. Compared to the gloves, now you're lightening fast. Your muscles are better able to handle the endurance, and blasts of power, and you're mentally toughened to go longer.
Conclusion: For me, at this stage in my training, I think I will continue with little/no weight. I already have some of the fastest jabs/hands in my dojo, and I credit that to a lot of work on the speed bag, and double-ended bag. (The light ones that will come around and hit you in the face if your guard drops. Lotsa fun!) I can also generate a good amount of power in my hits, and I don't want to train my hands to be dependent on padding, but to know my own limits.
If I am going to be hitting faster, I want it to be because I am throwing technically correct punches, not punches using stronger muscles. At this point, I'm not connected with a boxing coach who can help me do both.
But, I do credit a lot of my most useful fighting skills to my start in both boxing, and as a pint-sized football lineman.
I think boxing is severely under-rated these days.
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
Theres no denying how many more punches I can throw (and how harder they are) when I drop down to lighter gloves.
thesandman
Orange Belt
I'm going to voice a minority opinion.
Boxing is a sport, not a fighting style. That's not to say that it doesn't have its uses, but rather that in my experience, boxing training has hurt more martial artists than it's helped. It creates an unrealistic mindset in a real world situation and confuses the body in almost any martial arts tournament setting.
I have fought many, many boxers in my career. Both in real situations and in a ring. I have never once found them even remotely challenging. That's to say, pure boxers.
Now martial artists with boxing training, I've found that when they try to box, they lose. When they use their style they do much better. Generally, boxing training is so very different than MA training, it's hard to mix them well.
Most situations are about minimizing mistakes. Approaching me with your chest pointed at me, mistake. Throwing a "hook" at me, mistake. Hell, throwing your weight into any strike at me is going to get you seriously hurt or at least thrown across the room.
As an example, many years ago a friend of mine won some kind of regional boxing championship. He was very proud and I was happy for him. This was around the same time I was competing heavily in sparring. He asked me if I thought he could take me in a fight. I told him no, fighting and sports are very much two different things. He could beat me easily at boxing. I could beat him easily at sparring. They are both essentially games. But a fight? He just doesn't have the training. He didn't believe me, even on the sparring issue. I agreed to face him in the ring, with pads. He would box, I would spar. Basically free sparring (not stopping for points, but no throws or low blows type of thing). Much to his dismay he was unable to land a single blow. He just didn't know how to deal with my wide stance and ability to make him miss. Continually he would walk straight into my strikes, under estimating my range and speed.
Now I admit, this was a pure boxer with no other training at all. Not much of an accomplishment for me. I did some boxing training with him to learn first hand what it was that was making him so easy to defeat. The list was staggeringly long. Boxers train to win boxing maches which have strict rules and a long line of tradition.
I fully recommend doing some boxing training for the experience. I can even understand taking some of the good things they do and applying it to your style, even if at that point it's not really boxing. I do not, in the most strong terms, recommend doing boxing training at any rank under black belt, nor taking to heart the stances, weight distribution, angles of attack or mindset that almost always goes along with it.
Boxing is a sport, not a fighting style. That's not to say that it doesn't have its uses, but rather that in my experience, boxing training has hurt more martial artists than it's helped. It creates an unrealistic mindset in a real world situation and confuses the body in almost any martial arts tournament setting.
I have fought many, many boxers in my career. Both in real situations and in a ring. I have never once found them even remotely challenging. That's to say, pure boxers.
Now martial artists with boxing training, I've found that when they try to box, they lose. When they use their style they do much better. Generally, boxing training is so very different than MA training, it's hard to mix them well.
Most situations are about minimizing mistakes. Approaching me with your chest pointed at me, mistake. Throwing a "hook" at me, mistake. Hell, throwing your weight into any strike at me is going to get you seriously hurt or at least thrown across the room.
As an example, many years ago a friend of mine won some kind of regional boxing championship. He was very proud and I was happy for him. This was around the same time I was competing heavily in sparring. He asked me if I thought he could take me in a fight. I told him no, fighting and sports are very much two different things. He could beat me easily at boxing. I could beat him easily at sparring. They are both essentially games. But a fight? He just doesn't have the training. He didn't believe me, even on the sparring issue. I agreed to face him in the ring, with pads. He would box, I would spar. Basically free sparring (not stopping for points, but no throws or low blows type of thing). Much to his dismay he was unable to land a single blow. He just didn't know how to deal with my wide stance and ability to make him miss. Continually he would walk straight into my strikes, under estimating my range and speed.
Now I admit, this was a pure boxer with no other training at all. Not much of an accomplishment for me. I did some boxing training with him to learn first hand what it was that was making him so easy to defeat. The list was staggeringly long. Boxers train to win boxing maches which have strict rules and a long line of tradition.
I fully recommend doing some boxing training for the experience. I can even understand taking some of the good things they do and applying it to your style, even if at that point it's not really boxing. I do not, in the most strong terms, recommend doing boxing training at any rank under black belt, nor taking to heart the stances, weight distribution, angles of attack or mindset that almost always goes along with it.
You are correct in pointing out the differences of a combat sport vs. a fighting system, unfortunately something many are unable to do, but boxing is only a sport if the rules that govern ones training are sport oriented. If ones training goals are more practical than boxing does indeed become a fighting system. I've known boxers who train that low blows and back of the head shots aren't only valid but preferable. They train to avoid a clinch at all cost and not relay on it a a safety net. They also train that a fight last ten seconds not ten rounds. Boxers who train like this can be devastatingly effective.
meth18au
Blue Belt
Is Muay Thai only a combat sport in your eyes fella's? Would this render my training only sport training......???
Would you say nothing in the way a boxer trains is useful in an SD situation? In another one of my posts I was talking about my desire to expand my horizons- boxing is one of those arts on the horizon. I personally think a good boxer would possess many qualities that would allow them to protect themselves, both in and out of a ring.
Would you say nothing in the way a boxer trains is useful in an SD situation? In another one of my posts I was talking about my desire to expand my horizons- boxing is one of those arts on the horizon. I personally think a good boxer would possess many qualities that would allow them to protect themselves, both in and out of a ring.
thesandman
Orange Belt
This is all very true, I simply warn that it must be taken with a pretty big grain of salt and approached from an educated and experienced mindset. My fear is for the people dabbling in boxing without the knowledge and experience to accurately understand it's strengths and weaknesses.
I aslo believe that anyone training to strike the back of the head or groin is at that point not boxing. Their training may be very boxing oriented and have much in common with it, but boxing is a game. Once you move outside the rules of the game, you're no longer boxing and it should be called something else.
The first time you ever punch an olympic sparrer in the face and see the look of shock on them you'll understand what I mean. This was a mistake I couldn't help but repeatedly make the last time I was doing olympic sparring at a TKD class. Since points from punches are almost never awarded, most of them don't even fight at all to protect the face and head. They fight in a straight line, kicking each others chests. Every time the guy would move towards me, I'd side step him and punch him in the head. I couldn't help myself, it was reflex.
Does anyone know good resource that compares old timers bare knuckle boxing vs modern boxing?
Only link I have found is http://www.savateaustralia.com/Savate Essays/Bare-Knuckles to Modern Boxing.htm
Only link I have found is http://www.savateaustralia.com/Savate Essays/Bare-Knuckles to Modern Boxing.htm
Odin
2nd Black Belt
Its interesting that what you say here about people not being conditioned enough to take shots to the head or body for that matter....I would expect this is one espect of Boxing that a boxer would excell at, whether practioners from other martial arts would fail.
Your post about the boxer you met many years back that couldnt touch you is very interesting....i doubt very much he was that experienced based on the manner in which you have said you beat him.....''continued to walk into shots??'' that is a school boy thing to do.
Odin
2nd Black Belt
lol I couldnt imagine Floyd Maywhether fighting on the ''cobbles''...i doubt he would be very 'pretty' if he did
meth18au
Blue Belt
Understanding the strengths and weaknesses of any art from an educated mindset is a great thing to do. However, a skilled boxer would hold their own outside of the ring as well. I guarantee I can hold my own, and I don't take my Muay Thai training with a grain of salt either!!!
You say that:
But...there is no better way to understand the strengths or weaknesses of any artform than by training in (or against) that artform? True?
You're still using boxing though. It's like Muay Thai- in or out of the ring- still the same style. Maybe there are some differences, but essentially it is the same style, just with no restrictions. Or TKD, whether used in competition or elsewhere- it remains the same style. Does it not?
So does a black belt automatically qualify you to have the expertise? I know some black belts that couldn't fight to save their mothers life!!!! You've sparked my curiosity with some of your comments in the above quote. Why not take to heart the stances, weight distribution, angles of attack or mindset? If possible, clarification of your views on why these should not be taken to heart would be interesting to hear? Thanks mate
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
Im guessing he wasnt fighting a pro/semi-pro/golden gloves boxer. Most boxers I have met are tough SOB's that can take punches like you wouldnt believe. The "average boxer" would make mincemeat over the average "recreational martial artist" anyday IMO.
Odin
2nd Black Belt
I would have to agree with you there.
Most recreational martial artists do not get punched in the face daily.
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