"Boxing: The Martial Artist's Reality Check"

K

kenposcum

Guest
Well, duh.
Boxers fight. At the heart of what the martial artist does, there should be the knowledge that he may someday have to go kick some thug butt, ie, fight.
George Dillman relates a story where he told Muhammad Ali that Ali couldn't take him because "I'm in karate and I'm reallgood at it." Ali stepped in and Dillman kicked him in the leg and then did something else(I forget). Dillman says Ali said, "I see your point."
KISS is a good principle to keep in mind. I've seen lots of overcomplication in the arts(at which point I usually shake my head and walk away--I am respectful).
We also need to remember that boxing is not combat. It is competition. However, the best boxers have always viewed their fights as VIOLENCE. That psychological edge helps defeat an opponent who is just playing a sport.
I'd rather have to deal with a silly, drenched in mysticism martial artist than a boxer. But I'd rather deal with a boxer than a realistic martial artist, who will not only punch hard and have good defensive skills, but who will also have a host of other deadly techniques (side kick to knee, eye gouges, arm breaks, groin rips, throat strikes) which might cripple, maim, or kill me. Sure, a boxer can kill you too (head trauma can take anyone out), but the MARTIAL artist (note emphasis) can kill you quicker and more expediently.
So there's my $0.02.:asian:
 
G

GouRonin

Guest
Why is it people don't think that there isn't a full compliment of dirty tricks boxers learn and can pull off in full force?

Why is it people think that that boxers can't translate their art to combat? After all, most martial artists don't practice their art in anything other than "What if" mode. Boxers do it.

Do you think boxers only punch to the head?

Why don't you drop down to your local boxing gym and explain your theory to them.
 

ace

Master of Arts
Joined
May 26, 2002
Messages
1,573
Reaction score
16
Location
N.Y.
Not to many Boxers could do it
In the Octagon.

Boxing is a great Sport.
I have done some.

But the moment U go out side the Rules
it is no longer Boxing.

Now Boxing is great for many other things.
It has provided Great welth to those
Who can go to the top.

It has a place.

& Yes it is a Martial Art.
 
G

GouRonin

Guest
Originally posted by ace
Not to many Boxers could do it
In the Octagon.

Not many Arnis players could do it in the octagon. Still if I gave them a knife and then said come on in I'd be betting on them more.

The Ocatgon isn't everything. Besides, Igor V says that Boxing is what he wins most of his fights with.

Originally posted by ace
Boxing is a great Sport.
I have done some.
But the moment U go out side the Rules
it is no longer Boxing.

Sure it is. People have this misconception of boxing only being about the sport. BJJ is a sport. But it has application. Is it no longer BJJ once you leave the rules behind?

Originally posted by ace
Now Boxing is great for many other things.
It has provided Great wealth to those
Who can go to the top.

Actually, most of those at the top have no clue how to handle the wealth ans therefore act like loser thungs and spend all their dough. It's no surprise that a guy who never had money spends it like he'll never get anymore.

Originally posted by ace
It has a place.
& Yes it is a Martial Art.

I would agree.
 

ace

Master of Arts
Joined
May 26, 2002
Messages
1,573
Reaction score
16
Location
N.Y.
Im 1 & 0 in MMA
& traing for More

So this one Can!!
 

ace

Master of Arts
Joined
May 26, 2002
Messages
1,573
Reaction score
16
Location
N.Y.
Igor is a Kick Boxer
Who cross trains in Sombo.

Boxing is great for hands
Conditioning is great sparing
in Boxing is great


Moder Arnis is my foundation
But i also Do Submisson Grappling,
Wrestling & some Boxing.

I have trained in other arts to
I am all ways looking to improve
Fighting is what i love
So i work real hard at it.

:yinyang:
 

ace

Master of Arts
Joined
May 26, 2002
Messages
1,573
Reaction score
16
Location
N.Y.
Yes when U leave the BJJ rules behined it
Becomes Vale Tudo!
:wavey:
 

ace

Master of Arts
Joined
May 26, 2002
Messages
1,573
Reaction score
16
Location
N.Y.
Ok maybe they don't know how to manege
ther money but.
Being top Boxer gave them that
Advantege!
:wavey:
 
G

GouRonin

Guest
Vale Tudo it is. It's the same motions, just not with the rules.
:D

No kidding, when a guy like Tyson can owe millions and have to fight just to pay for his taxes don't you think there is a problem? Sugar Ray Leonard's management company now forces fighters to invest in long term investments to ensure that they have some kind of retirement package. About time someone started this kind of practice I'd say. I hope more adopt it.
 

Rich Parsons

A Student of Martial Arts
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Oct 13, 2001
Messages
16,865
Reaction score
1,097
Location
Michigan
Gou said:

Not many Arnis players could do it in the octagon. Still if I gave them a knife and then said come on in I'd be betting on them more. The Ocatgon isn't everything.


Rich Replied:

GouRonin,

Are you counting me out of the Octagon? Cause if you are then you have not seen my patented fall on your ankle and break it by 'accident' technique. :D

On the Boxing issue, I have seen and know some good local boxers that were good fighters on the street. I have seen street fighters that could not throw a proper punch or kick, but sure knew how to stop and wild kick with their stealed toe boots. :(

So, as stated before it is not the art but the person. OR go look at Gou's signature.

Best Regards

Rich
 
G

GouRonin

Guest
Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Are you counting me out of the Octagon? Cause if you are then you have not seen my patented fall on your ankle and break it by 'accident' technique. :D

You win! Uncle! UNCLE!
:rolleyes:
 
J

JDenz

Guest
Fighters fight. FIghters train to fight. Martial Artests trian. That is alot diffrent. I mean Honestly if you think any old black belt is going to beat Mike Tyson or any other boxer that fights pro it just isn't going to happen.
 

7starmantis

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
5,493
Reaction score
55
Location
East Texas
Originally posted by Zujitsuka

There is an interesting article on Boxing v. Karate/Kung Fu at this site, http://www.ymaa.com/pdf/YMAANEWS63.pdf (on pages 4 and 5).

Enjoy and I look forward to hearing what others think.

Regards,
I think the author is wanting to stop the grouping of people into specific groups, but he is stereotyping as much as people who say boxing isn't a MA. I think alot of people in this thread are too. You have to remember that to get an accurate comparison the two people have to be comparable. the average black belt soccer mom is not comparable to Mike Tyson, sorry. Anyone can beat anyone on any given night, thats why its about the people. Lets not go into boxing vs. MA. Thats a whole other thread!!:D

7sm
 
OP
Zujitsuka

Zujitsuka

Blue Belt
Joined
Oct 31, 2001
Messages
293
Reaction score
0
Location
Queens, New York
***********************
Personally, I feel that people practice MA for different reasons (i.e. self-defense, exercise, discipline, culture, recreation, etc.) and their motiviations should respected.
************************

With that being said, I doubt that Dr. Yang who is a preserver of traditional Chinese martial arts would allow an article that outright trashes traditional martial arts to be printed in his newsletter. Also, the author of the article is a traditional martial artist himself.

My understanding of the article is that it is not about the styles themselves, but rather the way different arts are taught. That is to say 'live training' (i.e. sparring against a resisting opponent) and a focus on physical conditioning as opposed to limiting training to the practice of forms and prearranged self-defense techniques against a compliant partner.

When it comes to fighting, it seems that a lot of martial artists think that having a vast arsenal of techniques will replace hard physical training, and live sparring. That is the reality check the article was talking about.
 

7starmantis

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
5,493
Reaction score
55
Location
East Texas
Originally posted by Zujitsuka

***********************
Personally, I feel that people practice MA for different reasons (i.e. self-defense, exercise, discipline, culture, recreation, etc.) and their motiviations should respected.
************************

With that being said, I doubt that Dr. Yang who is a preserver of traditional Chinese martial arts would allow an article that outright trashes traditional martial arts to be printed in his newsletter. Also, the author of the article is a traditional martial artist himself.

My understanding of the article is that it is not about the styles themselves, but rather the way different arts are taught. That is to say 'live training' (i.e. sparring against a resisting opponent) and a focus on physical conditioning as opposed to limiting training to the practice of forms and prearranged self-defense techniques against a compliant partner.

When it comes to fighting, it seems that a lot of martial artists think that having a vast arsenal of techniques will replace hard physical training, and live sparring. That is the reality check the article was talking about.

The author studied MA never actually said which system or how the auther trained. I think stereotyping MA in general as not sparing or practicing against "resisting opponants" as you did is just as bad as saying boxing is not a MA.

7sm
 
OP
Zujitsuka

Zujitsuka

Blue Belt
Joined
Oct 31, 2001
Messages
293
Reaction score
0
Location
Queens, New York
If you would look at the end of the article, you would have seen this on page 5:

"The author, Mr. Michael Rosenbaum, began his training at age 5 when his father first taught him Judo and Western style Boxing. Since then he has studied both Okinawan Karate and Kobudo, Bando, Wado-ryu Karate, and is currently studying Yang style Tai Chi..."

Obviously with Judo and Western Boxing he practiced against resisting opponents. There is no mention about what he did or does with the other arts.

He mentioned in the article that traditionalists often times get so caught up with the academic study and theory that they never investigate the practical (or impractical) application of the technique. For instance, if one were to fight with his hands chambered at his sides as taught in traditional Karate, he is very, very vulnerable. Also, a lunge punch is probably not what one would want to use in a fight. A jab or a backfist is so much faster.

The fact of the matter is that most traditional martial arts do not have live sparring - IMO point fighting doesn't count because real fighting is not stopped when someone lands a blow. Great men like Jigoro Kano (the founder of Judo) and Bruce Lee have proven that by taking on all comers of traditional schools. Most recently MMA fighters have proven what is practical and what is not. This is not a stereotype of traditional martial arts. The truth about what works is self-evident when pitted against a resisting opponent.

If one want to be considered a fighter, they must actually fight.

Respectfully,
 

7starmantis

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
5,493
Reaction score
55
Location
East Texas
I study a traditional system and I "fight" more than most boxers I know. What I'm trying to get across is that it depends on the person. A person by person approach, you can't same most do this, or most do that, that is a stereotype, you have no idea how "most" traditional MAist train unless you have met every traditional MAist and trained with them.


7sm
 
J

JDenz

Guest
With all respect to you pro boxers fight 5-6 times a week. I mean live sparring is what I am counting as fighting but still they are throwing leather alot. All I am saying is that a boxer with the equal number of years training is more likely to beat the MA with the same amount of training.
 

Latest Discussions

Top