Bouncing Bouncing Bouncing ??

[Tez3]

I have to smile a bit here, whenever I, on other threads, say well yes MMA people can do SD I get loads of people, including the TKD people, saying no, it's a sport they are used to having rules yet now being a sport means you can do SD! Ah well all part of life's rich tapesty in the martial arts world, expecially the 'my style's the best' bit.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I have to smile a bit here, whenever I, on other threads, say well yes MMA people can do SD I get loads of people, including the TKD people, saying no, it's a sport they are used to having rules yet now being a sport means you can do SD! Ah well all part of life's rich tapesty in the martial arts world, expecially the 'my style's the best' bit.

To be fair Tez I have been consistently in agreement with you

 

[dancingalone]

"You" was generic, sir, not addressing anyone in particular.

You will forgive me then for assuming otherwise when you quoted me as well as answered directly my Swiftian modest sparring proposal. No worries though - I do not hold a grudge.

Sparring, as those of us who train sport TKD at a high level know, is not a game. It is a fight just like a boxing match is a fight or a kickboxing match is a fight. It's easy to discount it, but it is a fight.

I really don't feel like rehashing this, so I'll make this comment and I will let this point drop. Sparring is not fighting precisely because there are rules involved. We cannot use all the tools in our arsenal - we accept constraints in the name of safety - we do all sorts of things which are suited for the ring but yet may be imprudent outside of it.

People get good at fighting by fighting. Your point about kickboxing, jiu jitsu, Judo and boxing go back to exactly what I was talking about BTW-fighting as many different people as possible, even under a ruleset, builds good fighters.

It builds good sparrers within the context of the rules in which you compete. Some qualities such as toughness and athleticism trained through sport may have carryover to fighting. Some of the technique drilled to a high degree may also carry over. Yet actually training for fighting (SD?) is really something else as there is a universe of other considerations to make and then practice against or within.

I am not discounting non-sport TKD training, far from it. I had a traditional background myself. But I believe that a competition circuit and a unified ruleset breeds better combat athletes and therefore better fighters on the average. Compared to my pre-sport days, when I became a WTF TKDin I had an outcome to train for. I was in the dojang five days a week, eating right, running, all that stuff because I was getting ready to fight and I wanted to beat the guy across the ring from me.

You're really talking about training intensity and achieving peak physical conditioning which I agree is a good thing.

What you are doing that I don't agree with is discounting me/the other WTF competitors here as players rather than fighters, and it's simply not true. A good WTF fighter can stand and trade with anyone you put in front of him and it's a benefit of sport martial arts that a lot of people miss.

Calling it a sport and its athletes players isn't meant to be an insult in any way. I in fact believe sparring, properly focused, is an essential part of training for SD, so yes I acknowledge the good parts of Olympic sparring include full power shots and training to avoid attack.

As far as weapons go, well, our provincial federation adds quite a bit of stuff and I blur the lines occasionally as to what is actually WTF/KKW curriculum and what is ours. So, you can chalk that up to my mistake. For the record I don't like weapons training much, I think it's largely a waste of time for what I want to achieve, but I have and do train it. Even for self defense I don't see much use. I don't get to carry a staff or a tonfa or sais or nunchucks. Closest thing would be picking up a broom handle or something.

Some weapons training is more applicable to the modern world than others. Tonfa for example... They map readily to the batons law enforcement officers carry. And training with weapons are like any other drill- they can carry benefits that are not readily apparent such as sensitivity or development of physical skills and ability. Certainly it has not been a focus in the TKD world given the historical connections TKD has.

Funny how we get into these debates. I train in 2 sport-heavy systems and compete in both as well as teach and coach in one, and that isn't a coincidence.

OK.

 

[dancingalone]

Ok, let's look at boxing. A martial art with excellent hand skills.

Take Manny Pacquiao. He seriously trains, at the most elite level, with a very restrictive set of rules. I mean come on, even Mayweather is afraid to fight him

Let's say either of us spar/fight him, and we pick the rule that you can punch anywhere we want, with no gloves on.

If Manny goes for the neck, lower back, groin and back of the head, do you think because he never trains that way, that he could not take us out that way?

You're making the mistake again of trying to compare a world class athlete to presumably an average person to illustrate your point. Take Pacquiao and match him against Jon Fitch in a MMA octagon. Fitch is bigger, stronger, and he has trained extensively with MMA rules. Guess who wins? I imagine it is the person who trained specifically for the activity at hand. Heck throw in someone else in Pacquiao's weight class rather than Fitch - I think the point still stands.

 

[miguksaram]

As for your sparring scenario, I'd be more than up for it. Staves, fine, I've trained with them. So has every other WTF guy. Same goes for Tonfa.

Ummmm...I would disagree with this. Any weapon work that is taught in a KKW school is brought in by another art. KKW curriculum deals in unarmed combat. Weapons are not in that curriculum.

 

[StudentCarl]

So we really have to get down to business and find out what exactly are we supposed to gain from WTF Sparring, and then start searching for it. If we don't know what we are searching for, we may never find it.

This is what we seem to be discussing, the larger context of which the 'bouncing' topic is one technical part. I'd like to see this as a separate discussion, though it seems to easily melt down into a comparison of organizations. I lack the longevity and documentation to add information about the development of the Olympic style kyorugi, but would love to read anything that seniors would share.

 

[puunui]

A Front Kick with the Front Leg
Optionally, Lead Leg Front Kick. Either way is Correct.

(And I know You know what I meant. Im deliberately Misinterpreting You. Because theres about Five ways I could Read that )

I knew what technique you were talking about. That wasn't what my question was about.

 

[puunui]

Could you let me know if you actually leave the ground or is your bouncing method the same as ATC described, where the bouncing is just a series of toe/ball of foot lifts? I'm fairly convinced a bunch of the stuff we see on Youtube actually has the competitors executing mini-jumps, but I can accept that is wrong if that is the consensus given.

It depends on the circumstances and also the caliber of the competitors, but the general rule is that the higher you are off the ground, the slower your reaction time. I agree with what ATC says. For the beginner I think you have to jump visibly off the mat to get a rhythm going, and then later you can refine the movement. When discussing these types of concepts, or any concepts, I think it best to talk about what the best are doing, since this is the goal. It is easier to discuss conceptual things that way. So if you wanted to observe bouncing, I would look to video of the latest world championships and see what they are doing, as opposed to random youtube videos which may or may not reflect what is the ideal. I also agree with mastercole in that people tend to emphasize bouncing less in favor of more proactive agenda. In that past, people would bounce just to bounce, sort of like what Chuck Norris was doing in Return of the Dragon when he was getting beat by Bruce Lee. But taekwondo has evolved past that now.

 

[puunui]

Yep. I'd love the chance to spar with an Olympic style guy under my own arbitrary rule set. Staves or tonfa allowed? Or perhaps we start in a clinch first? Heck we can even call it fighting if we want.

One thing you might want to take note of, and that is that many elite level competitors and coaches are not only involved in Olympic style competition under the WTF Competition Rules. Many also take boxing, do mma, gjj, bjj, hapkido, fma, etc. The thing to understand about competitors, especially champions, is that they don't care what the rules are, they fight under any circumstances, and often seek out opportunities to "fight" outside of the olympic competitor floor. Juan Moreno for example fights in local mma matches, and look what Herb Perez is doing at the administrative level. To them, fighting is fighting, whether on a taekwondo mat, a mma ring, or in a political ring. That is what you are facing, the bring it attitude, the never give up do what is necessary to prevail mentality, not just kicks from someone bouncing around with their arms dangling by their sides thinking about tapping you in the head for a valid point under the wtf rules.

 

[dancingalone]

One thing you might want to take note of, and that is that many elite level competitors and coaches are not only involved in Olympic style competition under the WTF Competition Rules.

I don't doubt it for a moment. People who strive for excellence generally look for outlets in which to grow and prove themselves in. I am sure however they recognize that different scenarios can require different solution sets and they work to develop those capabilities as needed.

 

[puunui]

I don't doubt it for a moment. People who strive for excellence generally look for outlets in which to grow and prove themselves in. I am sure however they recognize that different scenarios can require different solution sets and they work to develop those capabilities as needed.

Right. People do different things under different circumstances. They way your interact here is probably different than the way you interact with your boss, or your parents, your wife or your children. I also think that comparisons about what someone would do against this or that practitioner under a different set of rules is non-productive. I think that if you and your students weren't getting something out of what you are doing, then you wouldn't be doing it. I think that those who practice kukki taekwondo in today's dojang are probably practicing for reasons different than self defense only, or even primarily. therefore comparisons about how they would fare under a self defense scenario has about as much merit as asking for a comparison of how a tai ch person would do in a WTF tournament. People train for different reasons. That seven year old yellow belt learning at the strip mall isn't focused on defending himself against a rapist in a dark alley using a broom stick. And that should be ok, just like it should be ok if someone wants to train wholly for self defense, because they live in a dangerous neighborhood or have a dangerous profession. The martial arts, especially taekwondo, is broad enough to allow everyone to find a niche and a reason for training.

 

[ETinCYQX]

One thing you might want to take note of, and that is that many elite level competitors and coaches are not only involved in Olympic style competition under the WTF Competition Rules. Many also take boxing, do mma, gjj, bjj, hapkido, fma, etc. The thing to understand about competitors, especially champions, is that they don't care what the rules are, they fight under any circumstances, and often seek out opportunities to "fight" outside of the olympic competitor floor. Juan Moreno for example fights in local mma matches, and look what Herb Perez is doing at the administrative level. To them, fighting is fighting, whether on a taekwondo mat, a mma ring, or in a political ring. That is what you are facing, the bring it attitude, the never give up do what is necessary to prevail mentality, not just kicks from someone bouncing around with their arms dangling by their sides thinking about tapping you in the head for a valid point under the wtf rules.

This is more or less what I've been trying to express

 

[dancingalone]

I also think that comparisons about what someone would do against this or that practitioner under a different set of rules is non-productive.

To be blunt, the comparisons started with the statement made about balls (courage?) and sparring with elite people who train for a specific activity. It is a natural counter argument to point out that it works the other way too.

I think that if you and your students weren't getting something out of what you are doing, then you wouldn't be doing it. I think that those who practice kukki taekwondo in today's dojang are probably practicing for reasons different than self defense only, or even primarily. therefore comparisons about how they would fare under a self defense scenario has about as much merit as asking for a comparison of how a tai ch person would do in a WTF tournament. People train for different reasons. That seven year old yellow belt learning at the strip mall isn't focused on defending himself against a rapist in a dark alley using a broom stick. And that should be ok, just like it should be ok if someone wants to train wholly for self defense, because they live in a dangerous neighborhood or have a dangerous profession. The martial arts, especially taekwondo, is broad enough to allow everyone to find a niche and a reason for training.

This I can also agree with. I have related many times that my niece and nephew train in a form of TKD where the lack of rigor and rampant commercialism is bothersome to me, but in the end if they enjoy it, it is their lives to live not mine.

 

[puunui]

To be blunt, the comparisons started with the statement made about balls (courage?) and sparring with elite people who train for a specific activity. It is a natural counter argument to point out that it works the other way too.

Did the comparisons start with that? I'm not so sure. I will say this. I think that the overwhelming majority of kukki taekwondo practitioners don't care if what they do is, in the opinion of others, not valid for self defense purposes. I also think that the self defense oriented spend a lot of time putting down kukki taekwondo practitioners, their biggest point being their opinion that kukki taekwondoin cannot defend themselves in a self defense scenario, with their bouncing, their dangling arms, their lack of face punches.

 

[dancingalone]

Did the comparisons start with that? I'm not so sure.

It did for me. Prior to that I was discussing bouncing and making the point that the sport side of KKW TKD looks very unlike traditional TKD to me. I didn't make a value judgment one way or another as to the martial value of bouncing. As subject matter experts such as you and ATC say that it is a key part of your sparring, I defer to your knowledge.

I will say this. I think that the overwhelming majority of kukki taekwondo practitioners don't care if what they do is, in the opinion of others, not valid for self defense purposes. I also think that the self defense oriented spend a lot of time putting down kukki taekwondo practitioners, their biggest point being their opinion that kukki taekwondoin cannot defend themselves in a self defense scenario, with their bouncing, their dangling arms, their lack of face punches.

There is some of that I concede. However, there's also an undercurrent from more than one person here that KKW taekwondo-in kick the hardest, practice the best methodology, have the best certification, etc.

 

[StudentCarl]

However, there's also an undercurrent from more than one person here that KKW taekwondo-in kick the hardest, practice the best methodology, have the best certification, etc.

I understand what you're saying and how it can be a negative aspect, but I expect some of that in a diverse group like ours. The more someone is invested (knowledge and longevity) in a particular branch of our art, the more I hope they believe strongly in what they do...and sometimes it comes out 'loud and proud'. It's also interesting that every senior member I've been able to identify here consistently says that he/she continues to seek improvement without boundaries; they look for effective technique everywhere and work to improve it. I think that's very cool. The more I learn the more I'm coming to believe that "traditional Taekwondo" is not a snapshot of a moment in time but a commitment to refining and improving technique. Taking what little I know (all 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand) of the pioneers and my seniors, that's what they were about.

I bet most all of us will shamelessly test and find use for technical improvements. In the end it's not about the name, it's about what I can learn from you and make my own. I do think Olympic style sparring has fueled a number of useful technical advances that are useful beyond scoring points in the ring. Studying Taekwondo for 2 years around 1980 and then returning 30 years later, I have two clear experiences to compare.

 

[Cyriacus]

I knew what technique you were talking about. That wasn't what my question was about.

Eh?
Then what WAS Your Question, because I didnt see any.

Say you come in with a "Front Leg Front Kick"?

 

[puunui]

However, there's also an undercurrent from more than one person here that KKW taekwondo-in kick the hardest, practice the best methodology, have the best certification, etc.

I'm sure everyone thinks that their way is the best way. It is not limited to what some kukki taekwondoin think.

 

[puunui]

Eh? Then what WAS Your Question, because I didnt see any.

You quoted it.

 

[puunui]

In the end it's not about the name, it's about what I can learn from you and make my own.

In the end, it's not about the name, it's about what you learn about yourself. To me, the martial arts, and for that matter, sport, is about self discovery. You learn who you are and what you are capable of.