Blackbelt test in another club

[Faith]

Hello everyone! :-D I'm starting to look at the test for 1.DAN.

The thing is that my club and my master's are within an organization that is mostly active in the south-west of my country. My club is the only club in my organization in my part of the country and it will take me around 1 day to travel just for the test. Before the test, I have to attend 2 courses to prepare to become a black belt.

Because of the distance I am starting to look at taking the test elsewhere at other clubs that are closer but not in this organization my club is a part of.

This is because of two things; my wife is pregnant and the birth will be around when my organization has courses and black belt test (at a summer camp that is a week long) and that is the travel distance.

I haven't spoken to my master about it, but I know he's against it, and I'm not sure I'll have a club to go to if I do it this way. I can understand him, but I'm thinking about how to do this in the best way for me right now.
So my question is: am I selfish or unfaithful to my own club and champion if I take the black belt in another club? Does my master have the right to react in any way if I do it this way? Am I as an athlete allowed to do it to someone else in another club at all?

I'm a little confused about all of this and I'm not sure what to do. I know I can wait and there will be an opportunity to do this in my organization, but I'm not sure if it's about 3 years or 8 years. This summer is definitely not the way I planned at the beginning

(This is also posted in r/taekwondo on reddit)

 

[HighKick]

Hello everyone! :-D I'm starting to look at the test for 1.DAN.

The thing is that my club and my master's are within an organization that is mostly active in the south-west of my country. My club is the only club in my organization in my part of the country and it will take me around 1 day to travel just for the test. Before the test, I have to attend 2 courses to prepare to become a black belt.

Because of the distance I am starting to look at taking the test elsewhere at other clubs that are closer but not in this organization my club is a part of.

This is because of two things; my wife is pregnant and the birth will be around when my organization has courses and black belt test (at a summer camp that is a week long) and that is the travel distance.

I haven't spoken to my master about it, but I know he's against it, and I'm not sure I'll have a club to go to if I do it this way. I can understand him, but I'm thinking about how to do this in the best way for me right now.
So my question is: am I selfish or unfaithful to my own club and champion if I take the black belt in another club? Does my master have the right to react in any way if I do it this way? Am I as an athlete allowed to do it to someone else in another club at all?

I'm a little confused about all of this and I'm not sure what to do. I know I can wait and there will be an opportunity to do this in my organization, but I'm not sure if it's about 3 years or 8 years. This summer is definitely not the way I planned at the beginning

(This is also posted in r/taekwondo on reddit)

Pretty sure I replied to you on reddit. You are a KKW/WT school, correct?
No forum is going to give you the best answer. Talk to your instructor and see what your real options are. Not knowing your exact situation, there may be a way for you to do the curriculum coursework remotely/online and only have to show up for the physical part of the testing. This could reduce your time away from home, considering your circumstances.

KKW/WT certification is 'universal' and honored across all KKW/WT schools.
However, I get your instructors sentiment. He/she has invested a Lot of time and effort into you. Your goal is also his/her goal, so to leave and test somewhere else and then expect to just come back would be awkward at best. You have to man-up and talk this out with your instructor.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Is this KKW, or something else? Is there a reason that you can't test with him?

Also, is there a reason that you need to test, or to test soon? I'm of the mindset that in pretty much any ranked art, there's enough information up to 1st dan to spend 10 years training and mastering, and that is often better than learning the fancy stuff they might have after it. So it's fine to wait until the opportunity comes to your school, or until your life is in a place where you can travel.

Unless you've got plans to open your own dojang, or become an instructor, don't feel any pressure to rush it. And if you do plan to open your own dojang or become an instructor, that changes the whole dynamic of the issue with your instructor.

 

[Faith]

Pretty sure I replied to you on reddit. You are a KKW/WT school, correct?
No forum is going to give you the best answer. Talk to your instructor and see what your real options are. Not knowing your exact situation, there may be a way for you to do the curriculum coursework remotely/online and only have to show up for the physical part of the testing. This could reduce your time away from home, considering your circumstances.

KKW/WT certification is 'universal' and honored across all KKW/WT schools.
However, I get your instructors sentiment. He/she has invested a Lot of time and effort into you. Your goal is also his/her goal, so to leave and test somewhere else and then expect to just come back would be awkward at best. You have to man-up and talk this out with your instructor.

Yeah, that's right, you replied me on reddit as well. I am in KKW/WT and the organisation is TTU (Traditional Taekwondo Union).
I realise I have to talk with my master, he knows my feelings and thoughts about all of this, but he dosn't know that im thinking about doing the test it in another club. And yes, I am 100% agree that he has invested alot of time, and I feel im deciving him even by thinking about it.

Also, is there a reason that you need to test, or to test soon?

The trainer situation in the club is a bit tricky right now. I am an instructor as well. It is me and him. And I know the master kind of want me to have me as a blackbelt as an instructor, especially when I am starting to train redbelt's soon - he want a black belt to do that, but he don't have time because of something personal matters.

It is a small club and the TTU organisation is mostly on the southwest part of Norway. My club is the only club in the middle of Norway with some other pure WT-clubs in the neightboring cities, but the closest TTU-club is 5 hours away with car. The headquarter where the DAN-test will be is 13 hours away with car.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah, that's right, you replied me on reddit as well. I am in KKW/WT and the organisation is TTU (Traditional Taekwondo Union).
I realise I have to talk with my master, he knows my feelings and thoughts about all of this, but he dosn't know that im thinking about doing the test it in another club. And yes, I am 100% agree that he has invested alot of time, and I feel im deciving him even by thinking about it.

The trainer situation in the club is a bit tricky right now. I am an instructor as well. It is me and him. And I know the master kind of want me to have me as a blackbelt as an instructor, especially when I am starting to train redbelt's soon - he want a black belt to do that, but he don't have time because of something personal matters.

It is a small club and the TTU organisation is mostly on the southwest part of Norway. My club is the only club in the middle of Norway with some other pure WT-clubs in the neightboring cities, but the closest TTU-club is 5 hours away with car. The headquarter where the DAN-test will be is 13 hours away with car.

That actually makes this all a bit simpler. Let him know that you cannot make the test; your wife's birth absolutely takes priority over a week long test + 2 days travel. Don't tell him you're "thinking about it" or "you don't know if you can make it", tell him directly you cannot make that particular test.
He is the one who wants you to advance in rank. He can decide if he's okay with an instructor who is not a black belt, or if he wants you to test somewhere else (or perform a test himself - to my knowledge the KKW does not require a panel, he would just have to be 3rd degree or higher).

He can have the options, and from the available options (which does not include abandoning your wife for 9 days for a martial arts test and potentially miss the birth of your child), make a decision.

He could also choose not to have you teach anymore, or that you cannot train there anymore. If this is a necessary source of income for you, that complicates things. But if not, and he decides you cannot train there any longer, that's a good way to know it's not a healthy training/teaching environment and attend another school.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

As a side note, I assume that before you were instructor, you were paying for classes? If so, he hasn't "invested time", he's been paid for all the time he's spent developing you. That was what both of you agreed when you paid him for classes. That's fairly unrelated, but just an issue I have when instructors who are paid for classes act like they've been doing a favor and not a business transaction.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hello everyone! :-D I'm starting to look at the test for 1.DAN.

The thing is that my club and my master's are within an organization that is mostly active in the south-west of my country. My club is the only club in my organization in my part of the country and it will take me around 1 day to travel just for the test. Before the test, I have to attend 2 courses to prepare to become a black belt.

Because of the distance I am starting to look at taking the test elsewhere at other clubs that are closer but not in this organization my club is a part of.

This is because of two things; my wife is pregnant and the birth will be around when my organization has courses and black belt test (at a summer camp that is a week long) and that is the travel distance.

I haven't spoken to my master about it, but I know he's against it, and I'm not sure I'll have a club to go to if I do it this way. I can understand him, but I'm thinking about how to do this in the best way for me right now.
So my question is: am I selfish or unfaithful to my own club and champion if I take the black belt in another club? Does my master have the right to react in any way if I do it this way? Am I as an athlete allowed to do it to someone else in another club at all?

I'm a little confused about all of this and I'm not sure what to do. I know I can wait and there will be an opportunity to do this in my organization, but I'm not sure if it's about 3 years or 8 years. This summer is definitely not the way I planned at the beginning

(This is also posted in r/taekwondo on reddit)

Here's my take...

If your organization can't make it viable for you - given your life circumstances (like your wife's pregnancy), then they can't serve you. It's not disloyalty to move on in life when something no longer serves you. I eventually had to leave my instructor's school, because I couldn't explore what was important to me (including different approaches to teaching) while there.

I'd recommend that you explain to your instructor that because of the distance and other life circumstances, their organization's grading just isn't feasible for you, with your priorities. See if there's an alternative he can suggest, because you'd rather continue to pursue rank with him and the organziation you're familiar with. If he can't present a workable alternative, then do what's best for you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is this KKW, or something else? Is there a reason that you can't test with him?

Also, is there a reason that you need to test, or to test soon? I'm of the mindset that in pretty much any ranked art, there's enough information up to 1st dan to spend 10 years training and mastering, and that is often better than learning the fancy stuff they might have after it. So it's fine to wait until the opportunity comes to your school, or until your life is in a place where you can travel.

Unless you've got plans to open your own dojang, or become an instructor, don't feel any pressure to rush it. And if you do plan to open your own dojang or become an instructor, that changes the whole dynamic of the issue with your instructor.

In styles where approved instructorship (or at least being able to rank one's own students) is gated behind a given rank, I can see where spending extra years at a rank below that gate would be problematic. There was no new material I needed beyond purple belt in my primary art (no new material at brown - that's student teaching - and nothing I considered useful at shodan). But staying at purple for more years meant it would be that much longer before I'd be able to test my own students (shodan is full instructor in that association), and even longer before I'd be able to rank instructors. Those things were in my sights at the time, though life went in a different direction.

And in arts where shodan is less-senior than in the system I was in, there's often material at shodan, nidan, and even sandan that is pretty physical - meaning it gets harder to do (and test on) as you age. What I could learn to do easily at 30 was vastly different different from what I could learn to do easily at 40, and at least significantly different from what I could easily learn to do at 35.

So I can see why having to wait 3-8 years before another chance to attempt shodan would be frustrating.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You have a baby due at the same time as your 1st Dan test?
The answer is easy. You postpone your test. It's called priorities.

 

[drop bear]

When you say a day. Exactly how far and how long?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

When you say a day. Exactly how far and how long?

He included this later. 13 hours each way by car, and requires him to be there for a week, for 1st dan in TKD.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He included this later. 13 hours each way by car, and requires him to be there for a week, for 1st dan in TKD.

Which is kinda nuts to me. Just way outside my experience.

 

[drop bear]

He included this later. 13 hours each way by car, and requires him to be there for a week, for 1st dan in TKD.

Yeah. That is tough.

 

[jks9199]

As others have said -- the priorities are simple. Your wife is only having that child once. We aren't talking military service or first responder on duty and being caught by surprise; we're talking what is, really, a vacation. The test can be postponed.

TKD politics is out of my league. It seems that a with your instructor is in order, and an evaluation of the process. If it's about getting a black belt in a recognized accreditation system like the Kukkiwon... it seems like any school that can provide that check mark might be able to take care of you. Otherwise, the rank only carries weight within the system/organzation (e.g. Tananaka Tai Chi Tae Kwon Do that is unaffiliated with anyone else means their rank won't necessarily be accepted by another organization). I personally wouldn't welcome someone walking in and wanting just to test with me or to be promoted by me -- because my recommendation carries a certain amount of weight within my system. But if it's a Kukkiwon certificate -- maybe they'll work with you, especially if your instructor is helping grease the wheels.

And if you're instructor doesn't get the priorities... Then there's another discussion to consider having.

 

[HighKick]

Yeah, that's right, you replied me on reddit as well. I am in KKW/WT and the organisation is TTU (Traditional Taekwondo Union).
I realise I have to talk with my master, he knows my feelings and thoughts about all of this, but he dosn't know that im thinking about doing the test it in another club. And yes, I am 100% agree that he has invested alot of time, and I feel im deciving him even by thinking about it.

The trainer situation in the club is a bit tricky right now. I am an instructor as well. It is me and him. And I know the master kind of want me to have me as a blackbelt as an instructor, especially when I am starting to train redbelt's soon - he want a black belt to do that, but he don't have time because of something personal matters.

It is a small club and the TTU organisation is mostly on the southwest part of Norway. My club is the only club in the middle of Norway with some other pure WT-clubs in the neightboring cities, but the closest TTU-club is 5 hours away with car. The headquarter where the DAN-test will be is 13 hours away with car.

Are you testing under TTU or KKW? How would you just test at another club? What are the advantages, other than the assumed proximity? If there are other KKW schools closer, it may be a viable option, but it would surely be a jerk move to cut your instructor out of the equation. Maybe he is friends with another local instructor who can help? That is your best source of information.
To @Monkey Turned Wolf 's point, no I do not think you have some profound debt to your instructor, but both of you are invested in time and the instructor's knowledge, facilities, and passion to teach. Hopefully it far beyond the monthly dues and your training means something to you. I am not certain how you quantify that.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Because of the distance I am starting to look at taking the test elsewhere at other clubs that are closer but not in this organization my club is a part of.


I haven't spoken to my master about it, but I know he's against it, and I'm not sure I'll have a club to go to if I do it this way. I can understand him, but I'm thinking about how to do this in the best way for me right now.
So my question is: am I selfish or unfaithful to my own club and champion if I take the black belt in another club? Does my master have the right to react in any way if I do it this way? Am I as an athlete allowed to do it to someone else in another club at all?

Taekwondo is funny.... "You should be honoured to pay for our services." For some reason, it's not viewed as a transaction where each side benefits.

I once met a guy at a sports store, whom I recognised from a TKD tournament. We got chatting and he said he switched clubs.

I asked about the repercussions from the old school. It was a real eye opener for me when he said, "well, it's my money and I'll spend it where it suits me most".

 

[Earl Weiss]

As a side note, I assume that before you were instructor, you were paying for classes? If so, he hasn't "invested time", he's been paid for all the time he's spent developing you. That was what both of you agreed when you paid him for classes. That's fairly unrelated, but just an issue I have when instructors who are paid for classes act like they've been doing a favor and not a business transaction.

As a general rule, what students pay for my instruction is nowhere near what it is worth. If this were a college class and their are 15 credit hours in a week and and 20 weeks in a semester that would be 300 classroom hours often priced at $30,000 or more (Example for easy math) or $100 / hour. I would hope that in short order students would not view the student instructor relationship as simply a business transaction.

 

[Earl Weiss]

You have a baby due at the same time as your 1st Dan test?
The answer is easy. You postpone your test. It's called priorities.

I was teaching class when my wife went into labor for one of my Kids (1990) . Came home to find a note that a friend drove her to the hospital and I met her there. That Child has the initials BMW because that was the make of the friends car. (Father) Having a child is like being captain of a ship. Must be there for laying of the keel. Being there for the launching is optional.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Are you testing under TTU or KKW? How would you just test at another club? What are the advantages, other than the assumed proximity? If there are other KKW schools closer, it may be a viable option, but it would surely be a jerk move to cut your instructor out of the equation. Maybe he is friends with another local instructor who can help? That is your best source of information.
To @Monkey Turned Wolf 's point, no I do not think you have some profound debt to your instructor, but both of you are invested in time and the instructor's knowledge, facilities, and passion to teach. Hopefully it far beyond the monthly dues and your training means something to you. I am not certain how you quantify that.

As a general rule, what students pay for my instruction is nowhere near what it is worth. If this were a college class and their are 15 credit hours in a week and and 20 weeks in a semester that would be 300 classroom hours often priced at $30,000 or more (Example for easy math) or $100 / hour. I would hope that in short order students would not view the student instructor relationship as simply a business transaction.

Don't want to derail this thread too fair, and don't think anyone is going to change the other's mind here, but just want to make a couple points. First, I was mainly pointing to what is often a toxic relationship where you feel indebted to the teacher and are willing to bend over backwards for them out of a sense of duty. Second, most students do view it as a business transaction, regardless of how the instructors may feel. They start with the idea they want to learn an art/get fit/whatever, and most students continue viewing it that way, or leave because they're no longer happy with the 'contract' for whatever reason. There are a rare few that continue past that, but most don't. Finally, the college comparison is flawed. People aren't going to college to learn, really. They're going to get a degree and have verifiable evidence that they've learned X to help them in their career path. Very few people are training for the same purpose, especially when they first sign up. A better example would be other leisure activites that require learning. I just looked up rock climbing and found that the spot near my house charges $95/month, which comes with rock climbing lessons, and piano lessons cost 30-40 for one session per week. Both are pretty comparable with martial arts costs in the area.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Don't want to derail this thread too fair, and don't think anyone is going to change the other's mind here, but just want to make a couple points. First, I was mainly pointing to what is often a toxic relationship where you feel indebted to the teacher and are willing to bend over backwards for them out of a sense of duty. Second, most students do view it as a business transaction, regardless of how the instructors may feel. They start with the idea they want to learn an art/get fit/whatever, and most students continue viewing it that way, or leave because they're no longer happy with the 'contract' for whatever reason. There are a rare few that continue past that, but most don't. Finally, the college comparison is flawed. People aren't going to college to learn, really. They're going to get a degree and have verifiable evidence that they've learned X to help them in their career path. Very few people are training for the same purpose, especially when they first sign up. A better example would be other leisure activites that require learning. I just looked up rock climbing and found that the spot near my house charges $95/month, which comes with rock climbing lessons, and piano lessons cost 30-40 for one session per week. Both are pretty comparable with martial arts costs in the area.

I think I said this, but just in case - I've absolutely been to schools where I gained more than one would expect from a business transaction, and have had teachers whom were important to me, and are still in my life years after leaving the dojo. It doesn't have to be just a business transaction. But at its core, and for 95% of people, it is. And if an instructor is trying to use that as a way to, say, miss the birth of your child, so that they can say they have another black belt instructor without having to do the test themselves, that's a pretty big issue.