Black vs. Midnight Blue

[Galvatron]

Dear Lenny,
I don't understand how the "resume" you just posted has anything to do with me...
I was saying that while I don't normally agree with what you generally have to say, I DO AGREE WITH YOU concerning the creation of the "midnight blue" belt, and it appears I'm the only one in this thread that does.
So I ask, what's your point?

 

[dosandojang]

Some of my TKD/TSD Students...


http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v167/MasterArce/group.jpg

 

[Moo D]

Sorry I don't understand Mr Losiks post???

The thread was about the belt colour philosophy, I don't see where the CV fits into the colour question??

Regards

 

[glad2bhere]

For my part I still don't follow the use of Midnight Blue. As a Confucian society I would have thought that maybe a Yellow or a Red might have been used. Weren't those the colors of the highest ranks. Then again, perhaps as a Buddhist society an Ochre, Saffron or Beize (Natural Color) belt might embodied the idea of on-going search. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Moo D]

Bruce,

I believe that DJN Hwang was inspired by the Taoist beliefs, and certainly the Moo Duk Kwan Philiosophies are built on this, peace, harmony and a respect for all of nature and the universe (and where we fit in the scope of things).

The colour Midnight blue is used in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan and handed down by DJN Hwang. It means simply that learning is endless, committing all of ones life to the path will earn you experience and skill but keeps the strive for perfection ongoing. The Colour is the deepest blue and is as close to black as possible without being black. This means that blue can always be added as experience is gained and become closer and closer to perfection. However, perfection is the end as their is nothing beyond perfect technique, thus the path or journey ends.

As we all know, perfection is within our grasp but always eludes us, hence we dedicate our life to the pursuit of perfection by learning and training and seeking knowledge. My KJN Lee, Kang uk often says that even after all his years of training, he is still only a student of the art and needs to practice every day to learn more about himself and the art.

Regards,

 

[Llarion]

Before I read this thread, I subscribed to the "midnight blue" theory; but having read the black belt fading posts, I sort of like the elegance of that. I think now that either would be satisfactory. However, if tradition favors the midnight blue (as my school does), then I guess that's they way it will be for me. Interesting thread in any event. This is my first forum post, it looks like a really great forum!

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear MooD:

I kinda like the idea of always "adding more blue to make it deeper". Thanks.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Moo D]

Thanks Bruce,

Hence always a student!!

Regards

 

[TacticalMan]

Black or midnight blue, to me it is irrelevant. I appreciate the philosophy of the blue, the simplicity of the black. They both equate to the same thing: This student has met a set standard of knowledge and skill. However, any martial artist worth his salt never needs a reminder that there is always more to learn. Nobody will ever be perfect, all we need to be is a little better than we were yesterday.

 

[Robert Lee]

I thought the mid night blue or royal blue belt was put in place of the blackbelt for tang soo do After a restructure of hwong kee group and an instructor list was made of all member instructors. This list was put in I believe black belt magizine Show show only those instructors as the authorized instructors of the group. all others were not members or listed instructors. So the royal blue/ midnight blue came into place.I May but a little off but I think not much on this aspect.

 

[trueaspirer]

The belt, for us (my ma school) is more of an experience ranking than anything else. It often indicates better skill, but not necessarily.
While some mas do exist without belts at all, the ranking system helps keep some sense of order, especially in a small school such as mine which has an at-home feel to it, and everybody knows each other personally.
As for the bb specifically, I don't think that it makes much of a difference in peoples minds, as to how it affects their attitude about themselves, although I do agree with the midnight blue philosophy.

 

[Komah]

Black = end
Blue = everlasting ocean

I agree with it but I do wish we could wear black instead of blue

 

[Makalakumu]

Black = end
Blue = everlasting ocean

I agree with it but I do wish we could wear black instead of blue

In my school, black is used because it represents death. Chodan is the death of one stage of your training and the birth of another.

I tell my students that when they get to blackbelt, they start over.

 

[mjd]

I believe Black does not stand for perfection, it is completion or (Maturity) of one cycle or phase, I do not beleive it stands for death, death is the end, there is no end, there is a different or new cycle.

I once heard a Master say the colors of the belts is never ending and aways changing, certain colors highlight significant events or changes in the cycle of life. When the colors stop changing it is the end.

 

[Makalakumu]

I believe Black does not stand for perfection, it is completion or (Maturity) of one cycle or phase, I do not beleive it stands for death, death is the end, there is no end, there is a different or new cycle.

I once heard a Master say the colors of the belts is never ending and aways changing, certain colors highlight significant events or changes in the cycle of life. When the colors stop changing it is the end.

Just as you cannot have an end without a beginning, you cannot have life with death.

The black color of chodan represents the death of the "gup" phase of your training and the birth of the "dan" phase.

Or as I like to put it, chodan is where you start over.

 

[PeppersPetHuman]

At the school where I have trained for eight years, I have only seen midnight blue belts. They still call it a "black belt", but the belt itself is blue. I really don't have a preference.

 

[foggymorning162]

I don't think the color really matters as long as you worked hard to earn it do you really need a belt to prove your knowledge and skill? But what we were told was the old masters wore white belts (or plain) and they got darker and darker as they trained until they became black. It is considered bad luck to wash your belt as it washes away the knowledge.

 

[Chizikunbo]

what are your thoughts on these two aspects? just a color or something deeper?

i myself feel that a belt is just that. however i do agree with the philosophy behind the midnight blue color. i have worn both. what do you guys think??

First let me state I think the belt system has way to much emphasis placed on it these days. In any case, however I think that midnight blue is a part of the lineage of Tang Soo Do, and part of the Tang Soo Doin's identity. However, it is a matter of personal choice (or organizational choice) as to whether or not you wear the midnight blue or black.
Midnight blue is strongly tied with the philosophy of Taoism, midnight blue is the color of the deep dark ocean from which life began, and the color of the night time sky to which life returns. It symbolizes a full circle. Also ancient korean scholars coats often were adorned with midnight blue trim very reminiscent of the way we wear it today, and the trim was actually died indigo, because ancient indigo inks were much deeper, darker and richer than those of today. The blue was so blue it was almost indistinguishable from black, unless you paid close scrutiny to the garmets in question. Hwang Kee wittnessed some ancient garmets with this deep dark trim and began using it in his Moo Duk Kwan but it is actually part of Koreas ancient heritage, I rather like it...
--Josh

 

[orestes]

The colour black is in Korea associated with death, and the ending of things. Dark blue, however, is associated with fruition and fulfillment. This is stated in one of the first news letters of the us tsd mdk federation.

greetings ron