BJJ vs striking arts in self defence

[FriedRice]

There is actually a BIG difference between the "standard" BJJ taught at say most Gracie schools and self defense BJJ though. I will try to find the video but Rener and Ryron themselves have done more than one video on how there are BIG differences between competition BJJ and "street" BJJ and how even schools with the Gracie logo sometimes only teach the former and not the later.

Rener and Ryron are also selling BJJ belt promotions online and takes 2 hours to explain something with 10 minutes of contents. They are not the final authority of BJJ.

Your analogy also fails for another reason. Wing Chun, as an example, earned it's reputation in street fights and challenge matches in Hong Kong and still does today... BUT here in the US how many instructors do you think teach it as a "street fighting" art and not simply a "competition" art.

Well what you fail at, I would guess, would be your lack of experience in actual fighting in the street and in the ring. Considering the training involved in BJJ to earn the 1st promotion to Blue belt in "competition" BJJ, I would give the huge advantage to the BJJ'er doing very well in a self defense situation vs. mostly untrained, fat people in the street.

In the end though, I don't think anyone is saying "the BJJ/Grppler" guy is always "lonely".

Yes they are. You guys are doing this often with your saying how BJJ won't work vs. multiple opponents. This also tells me that you don't really understand what you're looking at when you see BJJ'er train.

What they are saying is that you need to select you art and, perhaps just as important, your instructor with the idea that you are training for that worst case scenario where you are alone and out numbered. Otherwise what is the point of training for self defense.

But see, the reality though is that most Self Defense type training are usual way lower on the level of training than, say BJJ.

 

[Juany118]

Rener and Ryron are also selling BJJ belt promotions online and takes 2 hours to explain something with 10 minutes of contents. They are not the final authority of BJJ.



Well what you fail at, I would guess, would be your lack of experience in actual fighting in the street and in the ring. Considering the training involved in BJJ to earn the 1st promotion to Blue belt in "competition" BJJ, I would give the huge advantage to the BJJ'er doing very well in a self defense situation vs. mostly untrained, fat people in the street.



Yes they are. You guys are doing this often with your saying how BJJ won't work vs. multiple opponents. This also tells me that you don't really understand what you're looking at when you see BJJ'er train.



But see, the reality though is that most Self Defense type training are usual way lower on the level of training than, say BJJ.

I am actually very experienced in fighting in the street, I have worked in what some would call a "combat zone" community for 19 years now and many suspects tend to not wish to come along quietly. Once you have that experience you can look at what is done in competition and see what would and what would not be practical on the street.

No one btw is saying "nope, never going to work, not even a little bit" when it comes to BJJ. That are simply pointing out that BJJ, as typically taught, has potential weaknesses in a street environment. Also guess what, some arts that have fewer potential weakness on the street have more in the ring. The potential in either case being determined by the particular circumstances/environment.

As an example, lets forget about the potential for multiple attackers. Am I going to want to go to the ground on tarmac with broken glass and gravel? Am I going to want to do so in a drug house with needles on the floor, or in a living room with the kids Legos everywhere? No I don't want to. This doesn't mean all BJJ techniques are usless but it does mean that some of the techniques some people see as part of BJJ's "Bread and Butter" are less practical.

 

[FriedRice]

I am actually very experienced in fighting in the street, I have worked in what some would call a "combat zone" community for 19 years now and many suspects tend to not wish to come along quietly. Once you have that experience you can look at what is done in competition and see what would and what would not be practical on the street.

I've been in many street fights too. But if you're a Cop, then your fights are probably different and not the same as when civilians fight....where they don't have to worry about felony assault on a cop, etc.. I've train with many cops, feds, soldiers, etc. throughout the years and currently. The street cops are better than all of the above when it comes to H2H sparring, hard for KO's. But if these cops have nothing other than their training from their perspective dept., then they're about an above average, White Belt....and would get whooped by a low level amateur MMA fighter, usually.

As an example, lets forget about the potential for multiple attackers. Am I going to want to go to the ground on tarmac with broken glass and gravel? Am I going to want to do so in a drug house with needles on the floor, or in a living room with the kids Legos everywhere? No I don't want to. This doesn't mean all BJJ techniques are usless but it does mean that some of the techniques some people see as part of BJJ's "Bread and Butter" are less practical.

How do you think that a pure BJJ guy would go to the ground in a street fight? Can you elaborate on the steps and such?

 

[Juany118]

I've been in many street fights too. But if you're a Cop, then your fights are probably different and not the same as when civilians fight....where they don't have to worry about felony assault on a cop, etc.. I've train with many cops, feds, soldiers, etc. throughout the years and currently. The street cops are better than all of the above when it comes to H2H sparring, hard for KO's. But if these cops have nothing other than their training from their perspective dept., then they're about an above average, White Belt....and would get whooped by a low level amateur MMA fighter, usually.

I tend to agree regarding those who are only trained via their department for the most part especially since such training is far from consistent. Very often the reason Street Cops are effective is simply because of raw experience. I tend to use the term "experienced brawler" in that regard. This is one of the reasons however I spend my own dime to study under a former LE Operator who is a Sifu of Wing Chun (TWC) and a Guro of Inosanto Kali.

How do you think that a pure BJJ guy would go to the ground in a street fight? Can you elaborate on the steps and such?

I'll answer this is two parts. First what I have seen over the last year and half, though not BJJ specific, rather a very skilled Collegiate Wrestler. He had gotten a number of concussions apprehending suspects. I was finally present for one and watched him do a takedown that works well on the mat but not on the street because of tarmac. While we got the suspect in custody he basically rang his own bell as the nature of the takedown naturally had his head coming in contact with the street.

As for BJJ directly we do have a couple of BJJ guys I work with who have a tendency to do what I USED to do based on my Yoshinkan Aikido and Judo training (I have only found my current teacher in the last few years.). Namely going to the ground and using arm bars, rear naked chokes (if justified) and other restraints that have a dominant position on the ground in a similar fashion. Now with the Kevlar the chance of jacking up your back and the like is slim but legs, heads and arms can still get banged/cut up etc. One of the things I really appreciate from my Kali training (which has a fair amount of grappling) is that, being also a heavily weapon focused system) it helped me increase my focus to standing grappling or achieving a dominant position on top of my opponent if I HAVE to go for he ground.

As you say though my preference may be in large part due to the LEO focus, maintaining weapon retention, needing to be able to quickly disengage to go for a tool or to address a new threat etc.

 

[drop bear]

it helped me increase my focus to standing grappling or achieving a dominant position on top of my opponent if I HAVE to go for he ground

What grappling did you do previously that didn't focus on top position or dominant grappling?

 

[drop bear]

I'll answer this is two parts. First what I have seen over the last year and half, though not BJJ specific, rather a very skilled Collegiate Wrestler. He had gotten a number of concussions apprehending suspects. I was finally present for one and watched him do a takedown that works well on the mat but not on the street because of tarmac. While we got the suspect in custody he basically rang his own bell as the nature of the takedown naturally had his head coming in contact with the street.

And I have never seen a wrestler choose to bounce his head off the mat. That is just silly. You can knock yourself out doing that

 

[Juany118]

And I have never seen a wrestler choose to bounce his head off the mat. That is just silly. You can knock yourself out doing that

It's not a matter of literally bouncing your head off the mat. It's a matter of a takedown that will have your head contact the street and there are takedowns they do that and with a fully resisting suspect the force of your head striking the ground can be intensified period so something that on a mat would be a slight bump is intensified by the fact that you aren't Lansing against a more forgiving surface.

In response to your previous question I didn't say that the other grappling Arts I learned, in my case a form of Aikido and Judo, lack top mounts, standing grappling etc. of course they do. They have, in my experience, a balance of top, rear and "under", positions of control. The thing is that with that much variety you can find yourself instinctively going for a control that provides greater control and may be physically easier to engage, due to positioning even if the "street" environment/situation may say it's not the best idea. By saying "focus" the study of Kali has made me more environmentally and situationally aware. I'll explain the various reasons why.

1. because it is weapons heavy, to include knives, it makes you constantly think about disengaging if control isn't assured. We will even train at times with one or both partners having concealed training blades so you need to plan and react with that in mind.
2. We will spar against multiple attackers. Sometimes all three coming at once, other times in stages where we have no idea when and how many will join the gray.
3. We will occasionally (very occasionally) do grappling training without the use of mats.

There are other things, and maybe it has as much to do with the nature of the training as the art, but by focus I mean it helps me to personally focus my mind on the standing/top control.

 

[drop bear]

It's not a matter of literally bouncing your head off the mat. It's a matter of a takedown that will have your head contact the street and there are takedowns they do that and with a fully resisting suspect the force of your head striking the ground can be intensified period so something that on a mat would be a slight bump is intensified by the fact that you aren't Lansing against a more forgiving surface.

what takedown is that?

 

[drop bear]

In response to your previous question I didn't say that the other grappling Arts I learned, in my case a form of Aikido and Judo, lack top mounts, standing grappling etc. of course they do. They have, in my experience, a balance of top, rear and "under", positions of control. The thing is that with that much variety you can find yourself instinctively going for a control that provides greater control and may be physically easier to engage, due to positioning even if the "street" environment/situation may say it's not the best idea. By saying "focus" the study of Kali has made me more environmentally and situationally aware. I'll explain the various reasons why.

1. because it is weapons heavy, to include knives, it makes you constantly think about disengaging if control isn't assured. We will even train at times with one or both partners having concealed training blades so you need to plan and react with that in mind.
2. We will spar against multiple attackers. Sometimes all three coming at once, other times in stages where we have no idea when and how many will join the gray.
3. We will occasionally (very occasionally) do grappling training without the use of mats.

There are other things, and maybe it has as much to do with the nature of the training as the art, but by focus I mean it helps me to personally focus my mind on the standing/top control.

So you did a jits or something? where you went jumping of mount to find subs?

Yeah. we dont really endorse that sort of thing either.

 

[Juany118]

So you did a jits or something? where you went jumping of mount to find subs?

Yeah. we dont really endorse that sort of thing either.

Not having ever been a Collegiate Wrestler I wouldn't know the name of the takedown but when I run into the officer I will ask, if it even has a specific name.

 

[Juany118]

So you did a jits or something? where you went jumping of mount to find subs?

Yeah. we dont really endorse that sort of thing either.

It's not jumping off a mount to find another subject, if I understand you correctly. My primary purpose is to maintain control of the suspect I am already dealing with. However, if my control was not adequate and the suspect pulls a concealed weapon I may need to disengage FAST so I can draw my firearm or another tool. I may also have to disengage suddenly if additional suspects decide to join in the "fun" or the location becomes otherwise unsafe, that kinda thing. The fact that Kali always assumed a weapon in on the opponent, or that they can turn something in their environment into a weapon, very much reinforces the methods that are best suited to such a rapid disengagement.

This isn't to say that if you study something different you may won't have this mindset btw, it is simply intrinsic to Kali and so makes the focus easier for me.

 

[Steve]

I am actually very experienced in fighting in the street, I have worked in what some would call a "combat zone" community for 19 years now and many suspects tend to not wish to come along quietly. Once you have that experience you can look at what is done in competition and see what would and what would not be practical on the street.

No one btw is saying "nope, never going to work, not even a little bit" when it comes to BJJ. That are simply pointing out that BJJ, as typically taught, has potential weaknesses in a street environment. Also guess what, some arts that have fewer potential weakness on the street have more in the ring. The potential in either case being determined by the particular circumstances/environment.

As an example, lets forget about the potential for multiple attackers. Am I going to want to go to the ground on tarmac with broken glass and gravel? Am I going to want to do so in a drug house with needles on the floor, or in a living room with the kids Legos everywhere? No I don't want to. This doesn't mean all BJJ techniques are usless but it does mean that some of the techniques some people see as part of BJJ's "Bread and Butter" are less practical.

Interesting turn to the discussion. I do have one question. How would someone who doesn't work as a professional in a "combat zone" community for 19 years become competent at fighting on the street? You've had ample opportunity to hone your skill. What about someone who doesn't routinely fight on the street as a part of their profession? Even if they learn the "right" skills in the laboratory of the gym, without some means to apply it in real time in context, there will be a functional limit on how competent they can become. Wouldn't there?

 

[Juany118]

Interesting turn to the discussion. I do have one question. How would someone who doesn't work as a professional in a "combat zone" community for 19 years become competent at fighting on the street? You've had ample opportunity to hone your skill. What about someone who doesn't routinely fight on the street as a part of their profession? Even if they learn the "right" skills in the laboratory of the gym, without some means to apply it in real time in context, there will be a functional limit on how competent they can become. Wouldn't there?

I think the right instructor can do it if there is adequate pressure testing like I noted later in the thread. Do some training/sparring without mats, we even sometimes use the folding mats as obstacles. Face multiple opponents, sometimes in stages etc.

That is one of the reasons my search for my current instructor was a year long search. There is also a Krav Maga "school" near me that holds classes 365 rain or shine in a local park that was an option but I wanted to weapons training from Kali as well.

 

[FriedRice]

I'll answer this is two parts. First what I have seen over the last year and half, though not BJJ specific, rather a very skilled Collegiate Wrestler. He had gotten a number of concussions apprehending suspects. I was finally present for one and watched him do a takedown that works well on the mat but not on the street because of tarmac. While we got the suspect in custody he basically rang his own bell as the nature of the takedown naturally had his head coming in contact with the street.

Sounds like the Collegiate Wrestlers weren't very good at wrestling. Many people say that "they wrestled in college"...and that usually means they took a Wrestling class for 2-4 easy, elective credits. I took Bowling, Weight Lifting and Racquetball, myself for those easy credits to help my GPA. In competition, the mat is right over a wooden floor. While in most gyms (where 95% of the wrestling takes place) that are rented warehouses, the mats (often only 1 layer), is right over cement flooring. It's not that soft, although still softer than the street. But for a good Wrestler to concuss his own self in a single or double leg...often, then he's just not that good. Now it could happen as no one's perfect....but dudes often make up big fish stories in the locker room.

As for BJJ directly we do have a couple of BJJ guys I work with

You still haven't answered my question as to how someone with only BJJ training (about 2 years/Blue belt), would take down someone in the street? I'm look for step by step.....not necessarily looking to catch you on mistakes, since you don't train BJJ.....just to see if I can show you that BJJ isn't limited to what you think it is.

 

[Juany118]

Sounds like the Collegiate Wrestlers weren't very good at wrestling. Many people say that "they wrestled in college"...and that usually means they took a Wrestling class for 2-4 easy, elective credits. I took Bowling, Weight Lifting and Racquetball, myself for those easy credits to help my GPA. In competition, the mat is right over a wooden floor. While in most gyms (where 95% of the wrestling takes place) that are rented warehouses, the mats (often only 1 layer), is right over cement flooring. It's not that soft, although still softer than the street. But for a good Wrestler to concuss his own self in a single or double leg...often, then he's just not that good. Now it could happen as no one's perfect....but dudes often make up big fish stories in the locker room.



You still haven't answered my question as to how someone with only BJJ training (about 2 years/Blue belt), would take down someone in the street? I'm look for step by step.....not necessarily looking to catch you on mistakes, since you don't train BJJ.....just to see if I can show you that BJJ isn't limited to what you think it is.

Well he was all State in High School and Nationally ranked (albiet division 3) and he just stopped coaching High School due to time. Like I clarified later though it's more an incidental impact exacerbated by two things.

1. Another wrestler knows how to "fall" in order to prevent injury to themselves, the term for this I am familiar with is ukemi. A consequence of being good at "falling" however is that you reduced the chance of your opponent also being injured as a consequence. You rarely get that on the street.

2. Tarmac doesn't give when the above happens.

Regarding BJJ I am not talking about the take down itself. I am talking about the "end", for lack of a better term. Martial arts is all about muscle memory and there are some BJJ techniques that, imo, create issues in street scenarios. Holds/restraints that limit the ability to disengage if circumstances demand it or your position may be one where in the very environment can cause pain or injury (broken glass, Legos etc.). The muscle memory comes in two told. First you should be trained to use A. The most effective technique and B. Move to the most "convenient" "end" technique. Sometimes however environmental concerns can make what is convenient in the gym or the most practical technique to have practical issues.

Now there are plenty of techniques that exist in BJJ that can account for the environment and street fight Dynamics BUT, imo, you need to train that way to build the proper muscle memory and the gyms in my area at least don't train with these "street" considerations in mind.

 

[drop bear]

1. Another wrestler knows how to "fall" in order to prevent injury to themselves, the term for this I am familiar with is ukemi. A consequence of being good at "falling" however is that you reduced the chance of your opponent also being injured as a consequence. You rarely get that on the street.

2. Tarmac doesn't give when the above happens.

No I dont think that is the case.

 

[drop bear]

Now there are plenty of techniques that exist in BJJ that can account for the environment and street fight Dynamics BUT, imo, you need to train that way to build the proper muscle memory and the gyms in my area at least don't train with these "street" considerations in mind.

You will find they are sports specific jits that does that. Basic jits still has the tools to focus on topside submissions. limb control and all these elements of concern you have.

MMA has these same variables. Sometimes for different reasons. Getting punched rather than getting knifed. Means you dont want to get under people. Or get caught in a grapple you might lose.

Good jitsers generally dont have an issue with these transitions.

I would be less concerned with street considerations and more concerned with techniques that work.

edit.

Let me rephrase that a bit. For self defence your technique should work in all three environments.

So it should work in the gym by you.

It should work in competition by quality guys.

And it should be appropriate to the environment.

Otherwise you create these weak links that can be taken advantage of.

 

[FriedRice]

Well he was all State in High School and Nationally ranked (albiet division 3) and he just stopped coaching High School due to time. Like I clarified later though it's more an incidental impact exacerbated by two things.

1. Another wrestler knows how to "fall" in order to prevent injury to themselves, the term for this I am familiar with is ukemi. A consequence of being good at "falling" however is that you reduced the chance of your opponent also being injured as a consequence. You rarely get that on the street.

It depends. When I'm throwing a beginner, I do the technique, but let them down easy. Against experienced people, then I assume that they know how to break-fall. If they get KO'ed, then hey, it happens. In hard sparring or competition fight, I'm looking to knock them the F out, and doing that to them with a throw + slam + my body weight crashing down on them = normalcy. So someone who's at that high level of a Wrestler, concussing himself out like that in the street, is pretty sloppy then....although maybe he's just out of practice.

2. Tarmac doesn't give when the above happens.

My point was that there's not that much difference with a single layer mat on top a warehouse cement flooring. At one gym, all they had was one layer of the jigsaw puzzle mats for a traditional Jujutsu school; and that was a lot of throwing.

Regarding BJJ I am not talking about the take down itself. I am talking about the "end", for lack of a better term. Martial arts is all about muscle memory and there are some BJJ techniques that, imo, create issues in street scenarios. Holds/restraints that limit the ability to disengage if circumstances demand it or your position may be one where in the very environment can cause pain or injury (broken glass, Legos etc.). The muscle memory comes in two told. First you should be trained to use A. The most effective technique and B. Move to the most "convenient" "end" technique. Sometimes however environmental concerns can make what is convenient in the gym or the most practical technique to have practical issues.

Now there are plenty of techniques that exist in BJJ that can account for the environment and street fight Dynamics BUT, imo, you need to train that way to build the proper muscle memory and the gyms in my area at least don't train with these "street" considerations in mind.

Ok, so what are these muscle memory flaws are you talking about? I'm asking you to be specific. What are these flawed techniques of BJJ that would endanger them in the street full of broken glass and needles?

 

[Juany118]

It depends. When I'm throwing a beginner, I do the technique, but let them down easy. Against experienced people, then I assume that they know how to break-fall. If they get KO'ed, then hey, it happens. In hard sparring or competition fight, I'm looking to knock them the F out, and doing that to them with a throw + slam + my body weight crashing down on them = normalcy. So someone who's at that high level of a Wrestler, concussing himself out like that in the street, is pretty sloppy then....although maybe he's just out of practice.

Yes but we can't just say "I am looking to knock them the F-out." We have "red zones", "yellow zones" and "green zones" in terms of where we can strike or, via other techniques, cause inanimate objects to strike intentionally. If I knock someone out, I need to be able to justify it in a very objective manner. Dropping someone on their head (so to speak) intentionally has to be justified specifically and if my UoF memos keep saying "during the course of the takedown the suspect accidentally struck his head" when strikes to the head were not justified to quote an old TV show "Lucy you have a lot of explaining to do."

That, in combination with the fact the other person doesn't know what to do but you can't "go easy" can create issues. I will give you and extreme example. One day I was alone in an ER with a mentally ill subject I had to take down. During the struggle we moved and when I finally started the takedown I suddenly noticed that I had the suspect headed head first into plate glass next to the ER's automatic door. I had two choices, continue the takedown and risk the suspect going face first through it risking serious bodily injury, that wasn't justifed, or "abort" and risk minor to moderate injury to myself to maintain control. Due to the circumstances I did the later and jacked the tendons in one elbow. Now in a "generic" self-defense scenario this decision may not have been as important so as I said elsewhere I may be inserting issues that more generic self defense scenarios don't need to worry about.

Ok, so what are these muscle memory flaws are you talking about? I'm asking you to be specific. What are these flawed techniques of BJJ that would endanger them in the street full of broken glass and needles?

You may find yourself in a position where to get into a "top mount" like say this

that permits easier disengagement and isolates you from the ground and possible environmental injury BUT to get here it may require an extra move or two. Muscle memory, and its typical focus on efficiency, may have you instinctively have you move to an "end game" that resembles

or

Now I see these as, not always but sometimes, problematic (especially in my line of work) because you never know what surface you are on as well as the fact that such positions create issues with rapid disengagement that circumstances may dictate (a weapon drawn, your own weapon retention, additional assailants joining the fray etc.)

Again we may be talking about concerns that I encounter more often than others, mileage may vary.

 

[drop bear]

Yes but we can't just say "I am looking to knock them the F-out." We have "red zones", "yellow zones" and "green zones" in terms of where we can strike or, via other techniques, cause inanimate objects to strike intentionally. If I knock someone out, I need to be able to justify it in a very objective manner. Dropping someone on their head (so to speak) intentionally has to be justified specifically and if my UoF memos keep saying "during the course of the takedown the suspect accidentally struck his head" when strikes to the head were not justified to quote an old TV show "Lucy you have a lot of explaining to do."

That, in combination with the fact the other person doesn't know what to do but you can't "go easy" can create issues. I will give you and extreme example. One day I was alone in an ER with a mentally ill subject I had to take down. During the struggle we moved and when I finally started the takedown I suddenly noticed that I had the suspect headed head first into plate glass next to the ER's automatic door. I had two choices, continue the takedown and risk the suspect going face first through it risking serious bodily injury, that wasn't justifed, or "abort" and risk minor to moderate injury to myself to maintain control. Due to the circumstances I did the later and jacked the tendons in one elbow. Now in a "generic" self-defense scenario this decision may not have been as important so as I said elsewhere I may be inserting issues that more generic self defense scenarios don't need to worry about

That is not the case.

If you can actually wrestle. You can put a guy down easily even if they are really fighing you. That is part of the training. Now you generally don't in a fight because there is more risk of them stuffing your take down or recovering.


But if you have the advantage then you can employ nice techniques.