BJJ, Complete Arts, and Other Things

[Darth F.Takeda]

I have seen the arguments of that BJJ instructor before, as it was presented on another forum by one of his students. The guy eventually left in a huff since even the rest of the BJJ community there neither shared nor accepted his views. I believe there are some (self serving) fundamental flaws to his arguments. I will share some of the points I brought up with that student and shared with the BJJ community on the other board.

Fights are won on defense, in other words, the person whose defense collapses first is the one who loses. In the early UFC's, BJJ stylist Royce Gracie was pitted against fighters who had very little clue of how to defend or counter what he brought to the table. OTOH, Royce was very well prepared for their arsenal and game plan. The early UFC's didn't truly show that BJJ or submission grappling is superior to striking systems, it simply proved that the more prepared fighter can exploit the holes in other people's gameplans and that the element of surprise has won more battles than any other factor. It also doesn't hurt that your brother is the promoter and can hand pick the opponents who the majority have little experience against what you are doing either.

Grappling legend Gene LeBell has mentioned that when the first karateka came on the scene in the USA, the "unbeatable technique" was the front kick (usually more of a high kick). This was because boxers, wrestlers and judoka hadn't had to deal with this new element and were unprepared to defend against it...at first. It wasn't too long though before high kicks were no longer an autowin and people figured out how to defend and counter against them. The same is true of BJJ and submission grappling. Over time, MMA fighters have developed the skills to defend and counter against both takedowns and the ground game.

In regards to the FIGHT QUEST programs, I think that these are very good examples of why ground fighting and grappling became overlooked by so many systems in the first place. Strategically, the ground is NOT a good place to be in a real fight. I do believe in having superior ground skills so that you can deal with the very likely situation that you may end up there, but even many of the very best grapplers will tell you it's a better idea to post back to your feet ASAP in a real fight. I LOVE submission grappling and BJJ is a big part of that curriculum that I train in and teach my students. Still, for self defense the only time I would ever choose to take the fight to the ground on purpose is IF my opponent had me totally outmatched in stand up. Then I might try to take him out of his element and hope that he was a one dimensional fighter. Otherwise, I want my groundfighting as a defense in case my opponent takes me down, especailly by a surprise attack. Then I will post back to my feet as quickly as I can because just too many other factors can enter into it when I'm on the ground. I'll leave my rolling for the mats in compettiton and class, thank you.

The Gracies have had a very strong propaganda campaign that many of their guys have bought into. It's not the use of gloves or the restriction of rules that is the reason that BJJ no longer dominates MMA competitions. It's the fact that no one is caught flat footed anymore and know how to defend and counter their gameplan. Ground skills in both submissions and ground striking are a very important part of a MMA practitioner or competitor's arsenal, but the days that you can catch an experienced fighter with the "sucker moves" are log gone. Even the fans and backyard guys have a decent knowledge of what you are up to nowdays.

Some of the often quoted propaganda put out by some of the Gracie clan (not all of the Gracie family have been part of this and some are privately opposed to it) includes lines that counter their systems obvious weaknesses. Their line is that "no one can really defend against these things, so why even bother". Well, the truth is that other people who focus on and train against multiple opponents and weapons have succesfully defended against them in real life many times. It's not a guarantee and you are at a distinct disadvantage, but your odds are far greater of success than not training for it IMO. Yet, their followers often quote these lines like scripture and believe it like it's their gospel.

Well put.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

No art has it all, but some are more complete systems vs component systems.

Our art od Icho Yama Ryu Aiki Jujutsu-Quantico Kai would be considered a complete system of Jujutsu.
We have most of the grappling that is in BJJ (They do refine it much more, as that's their area), most of the throws of Judo (again though they are better at it) a bunch of Joint locks and destructions, chokes, neck cranks, unbalancing techniques and basic striking. We do alot of weapons defense as well and we also train to use weapons but not as much as a good FMA school.
So it's a complete system but ther are areas that other arts do more.

You could study our art and be pretty well prepared for the different ranges of combat, but some of us studdy other arts to cover ground not as well coverd by Icho or to cover ground that specializes in one of the elements of Icho (I.e. I like knife work, strikes and footwork so I do FMA,as they do more of these things. I like simple reactions to surprise assults, so I have done a good deal of CQC training. And I just like learning stuff, so I crosstrain with just about anybuddy who has something to show.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Liddel was a champion wrestler (California State Championship in Freestyle). You have to know grappling to be able to defend grappling, unless you are some kind of freak phenom. Exceptions do not prove the rule, in any case.

But that's kind of my point. Compared to the wealth of experience and knowledge that Couture possesses, Liddell is a bit of an amateur. HOWEVER... he knows enough about grappling (sprawling, countering set-ups, etc) to stall any attempts at takedowns, and then he drops close bombs until you back off. I figure MANY MANY folks are going to be learning the new truncated BJJ Combatives (I know I'm looking into it), what with their 30-something techniques that they admit are the most high-probability techniques out of their system. You get those down, & the odds are you will be just fine for the rest of your life against ANYONE you run into that wants to grapple. There are still too few BJJ Black Belts out there to bother figuring them into your street-fighting statistics...