Biu Jee , a Spiralling Whirlpool and Chum Kiu , a Rotating Cylinder.

[mook jong man]

That is how I think of the pivoting used in these two forms , although to the untrained eye the rotation of the body probably looks exactly the same.

The Chum Kiu pivoting could be visualised as a rapidly rotating cylinder , the form as practiced in our lineage is based on very strict body unity with the upper and lower body locked at the waist as we rotate from side to side.
This enables us to efficiently put our body mass into attacking and defensive motions.

But when we get to the level of learning Biu Jee in our lineage , in somewhat of a contradiction this body unity is abandoned for a different type of pivoting.

Instead of the whole body pivoting as one unit , the upper body , namely the elbows initiate the pivot and the lower body just comes along for the ride , I think of this as similar to a whirlpool type of effect.

The purpose of this is to increase the destructive power of any technique , the extra force generated from the upper body adds a very high speed "whipping " type of effect and increases the power of striking and other movements.

But this type of destructive power cannot be achieved without first having trained in Sil Lum Tao and developed your structure and then later on in Chum Kiu where you learn to send your body mass into that structure.

Any attempt to leap frog these stages of learning and just go straight to Biu Jee usually results in an injured back from the high speed rotation used in Biu Jee moves , or worse still , in a real fight the moves will be ineffectual and be used against you.

Any thoughts?

 

[naneek]

the type of energy you describe in the pivot from bui jee sounds almost like a golfers swing but kind of in reverse, golfers initiate their swing from the hips and the shoulders et al follow and add to the force. i have not reached the chum Kiu level yet so this is just guessing based on what you have said,

 

[geezer]

...when we get to the level of learning Biu Jee in our lineage , in somewhat of a contradiction this body unity is abandoned for a different type of pivoting.
Instead of the whole body pivoting as one unit , the upper body , namely the elbows initiate the pivot and the lower body just comes along for the ride , I think of this as similar to a whirlpool type of effect.
The purpose of this is to increase the destructive power of any technique , the extra force generated from the upper body adds a very high speed "whipping " type of effect...
Any thoughts?

First reaction: Talking about the "WC spiraling whirlpool" is an unfortunate metaphor, especially in countries where the term "WC" has a more mundane implication.

Second thought: Boy this will get a negative response from anyone who's obsessed by keeping the upper and lower body rigidly locked together, no matter what. So much for rigid people with rigid minds!

Personally, I like the terms "whipping" and "elastic" to describe what begins to happen in Biu Tze, as I have been training it (and I have a long way to go yet before I really get it right). I agree that it moves you beyond the "cylinder-like" quality of Chum Kiu, and the linkages between arm, torso and stance become much more elastic and alive. But to me, I don't feel that the stance is "trailing" along for the ride. Even more than Chum Kiu, in Biu Tze I feel like the energy originates, almost like a wave, from lower body. Maybe less so doing the "Kup Jarn" or downward elbow sequence than the Kwai Jarn or Pai Jarn sequences.... (we now do three types of elbow in our Biu Tze). Another place you really feel what I'm talking about is in when turning back 90 degrees from the double grappling-hands to the "hooking punch". I don't play golf, but I think maybe I'm doing it more like what he described? Very elastic and whip-like from bottom to top. Or maybe I'm just doing it wrong. Feels fast and powerful, though.

 

[mook jong man]

First reaction: Talking about the "WC spiraling whirlpool" is an unfortunate metaphor, especially in countries where the term "WC" has a more mundane implication.

Yeah probably something like vortex , cyclonic or tornadoe like would have been better , also I'm in the southern hemisphere so the whirlpool goes in the opposite direction down the w.c

Second thought: Boy this will get a negative response from anyone who's obsessed by keeping the upper and lower body rigidly locked together, no matter what. So much for rigid people with rigid minds!

Maybe , I know people do things differently across the various lineages and I respect that.
But in our lineage we believe that each form has it's own set of unique concepts that it is based on , and in my opinion if you are rotating your body in Biu Jee exactly the same way as you are in Chum Kiu , then you are not learning a new concept.
Basically you are just repeating the Chum Kiu form with a few elbow strikes and a couple of finger jabs thrown in .

Personally, I like the terms "whipping" and "elastic" to describe what begins to happen in Biu Tze, as I have been training it (and I have a long way to go yet before I really get it right). I agree that it moves you beyond the "cylinder-like" quality of Chum Kiu, and the linkages between arm, torso and stance become much more elastic and alive. But to me, I don't feel that the stance is "trailing" along for the ride. Even more than Chum Kiu, in Biu Tze I feel like the energy originates, almost like a wave, from lower body. Maybe less so doing the "Kup Jarn" or downward elbow sequence than the Kwai Jarn or Pai Jarn sequences.... (we now do three types of elbow in our Biu Tze). Another place you really feel what I'm talking about is in when turning back 90 degrees from the double grappling-hands to the "hooking punch". I don't play golf, but I think maybe I'm doing it more like what he described? Very elastic and whip-like from bottom to top. Or maybe I'm just doing it wrong. Feels fast and powerful, though.

Yeah elastic is a good way to describe it too.

In ours the upper body definitely initiates the pivot first , I think it adds another level of faster rotation on top of the rotation already developed from training the Chum Kiu.
I also feel I have a long way to go to get it right , it's not too bad at a moderate speed but when you try to get those elbows flying pretty quick it can start to look a bit ordinary balance wise.