Bill Wallace Fighting Style in WTF TKD Tournaments

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I am curious if any of the tournament fighters have comments about Bill Wallace's side stance fighting style in regards to WTF TKD tournament fighting. TKD seems to teach a more open stance than Mr. Wallace's side stance.

For instance Mr. Wallace loves the hook kick, and has it coming straight across, parallel to the floor. From what I've seen in tournament fighting the "hook" kick used in TKD starts from a semi-open stance, so the kick comes down on the face at about 45 degrees, rather than straight across. (In my class, we call this 45 degree downward "hook" kick a whip kick). I can see 45 degree downward angle giving more power since you have the weight of the foot helping somewhat.

My guess is Mr. Wallace's side stance is more defensive when punches to the head are allowed. I've seen him say in videos that he will lean his head away from an opponent and use the leading shoulder to block punches. Since WTF TKD does not allow punches to the head, fighters open the stance even at close range while doing high kicks. That's my guess anyway why TKD fighters don't fight as closed as Mr. Wallace.

Appreciate your thoughts - thanks!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I dont know if this answers your question but I train with a guy who has just started doing muay thai on the side. In tkd he uses the very typical WTF style stance (our instructors let us find a stance that suits our 'style', and for him that works, I personally use a more open stance). He was telling me the other night that he had the absolute crap kicked out of his legs at muay thai because of his tkd stance, so he has had to adjust a lot to protect from leg kicks particularly to his upper thigh apparantly. Another guy I train with does a form of karate where they have a form of sparring where anything goes and he too said his legs copped a battering, so I can only conclude that perhaps if leg kicks are legal the typical tkd stance can cause problems, but Im only basing this on information told to me and not personal experience.

 

[Earl Weiss]

FWIW not being a WTF guy, you won't see many lead leg kicks used in WTF comps. I don't think the WTF judges will score them. (Unless of course you knock the guy out.

Wallace does 2 more interesting things. He points the toe - ankle at 90 degrees for theroundhouse kick and makes contact with the toe of the boot. Most make contact with the top of the foot. This allows the foot to goe around the guard if your hands are up.

He also brings his leg more forward and makes contact with more of the bottom of the foot (as oppose to the back of the heel) so his knee is more bent for the hook kick. Again, this allows the foot to go around the guard .

 

[ATC]

I am curious if any of the tournament fighters have comments about Bill Wallace's side stance fighting style in regards to WTF TKD tournament fighting. TKD seems to teach a more open stance than Mr. Wallace's side stance.

For instance Mr. Wallace loves the hook kick, and has it coming straight across, parallel to the floor. From what I've seen in tournament fighting the "hook" kick used in TKD starts from a semi-open stance, so the kick comes down on the face at about 45 degrees, rather than straight across. (In my class, we call this 45 degree downward "hook" kick a whip kick). I can see 45 degree downward angle giving more power since you have the weight of the foot helping somewhat.

My guess is Mr. Wallace's side stance is more defensive when punches to the head are allowed. I've seen him say in videos that he will lean his head away from an opponent and use the leading shoulder to block punches. Since WTF TKD does not allow punches to the head, fighters open the stance even at close range while doing high kicks. That's my guess anyway why TKD fighters don't fight as closed as Mr. Wallace.

Appreciate your thoughts - thanks!

We teach to stay sideways. It hides the back leg and foot a bit and shrinks the target areas.

The kick you are talking about in WTF TKD is not a hook kick at all but more of an arching axe kick, it is not a hook at all. The reason for the 45 degree angle is because you need to come up over (or around) the guard or shoulder then down and through the head. If the opponent moves back you can still push or drop the kick. Pushing the kick will allow you to reach the head moving back and dropping the kick will land on the chest.

You also start the kick with a bent knee to help get past or over the guard.

The hook kick is not used as it will most always fall short and a simple lean back is all that is needed. Not to mention that an underneath bada kick is a simple counter to it as well.

 

[puunui]

In tkd he uses the very typical WTF style stance

What to you is a very typical WTF style stance?

 

[puunui]

FWIW not being a WTF guy, you won't see many lead leg kicks used in WTF comps. I don't think the WTF judges will score them. (Unless of course you knock the guy out. .

Front leg scores quite a bit in WTF competition. There was a time when it didn't though.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What to you is a very typical WTF style stance?

Very side on. Olympic tkd style I would call the a typical WTF style stance.

 

[puunui]

From what I've seen in tournament fighting the "hook" kick used in TKD starts from a semi-open stance, so the kick comes down on the face at about 45 degrees, rather than straight across. (In my class, we call this 45 degree downward "hook" kick a whip kick).

In the 1987 WTF Video "The Art of Taekwondo Competition", which was cutting edge at the time, they called an ax kick a "hook kick", and a hook kick a "whip kick". Korean terms tend to describe the action or motion of the movement, hence you "hook" down on an ax kick and "whip" a spin hook kick.

 

[puunui]

He was telling me the other night that he had the absolute crap kicked out of his legs at muay thai because of his tkd stance, so he has had to adjust a lot to protect from leg kicks particularly to his upper thigh apparantly. Another guy I train with does a form of karate where they have a form of sparring where anything goes and he too said his legs copped a battering, so I can only conclude that perhaps if leg kicks are legal the typical tkd stance can cause problems, but Im only basing this on information told to me and not personal experience.

I don't think it has anything to do with stance, but rather it has everything to do with the fact that they aren't used to it. People think they can shake off leg kicks, or may otherwise discount it, but that just tells me they have never really been kicked in the leg by someone who was into it.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I don't think it has anything to do with stance, but rather it has everything to do with the fact that they aren't used to it. People think they can shake off leg kicks, or may otherwise discount it, but that just tells me they have never really been kicked in the leg by someone who was into it.

All I know is the first thing they adjusted at muay thai was his stance and it solved the problems. I dont know the technical side behind it because I wasnt there but Im sure there is a reason that kickboxers dont use a tkd stance.

 

[puunui]

All I know is the first thing they adjusted at muay thai was his stance and it solved the problems. I dont know the technical side behind it because I wasnt there but Im sure there is a reason that kickboxers dont use a tkd stance.

Muay Thai has more weight on the back leg rather than the front, so I think that is what your friend is switching to. But still Muay Thai fighters kick each other in the leg all the time so I don't think it would completely solve the problem. Experiment with it and see what you come up with.

Another thing that you can do against a leg kicker is to go open stance on them. That way they don't get the clear shot to your front leg with their rear leg. The leg kicker can still try to kick the inside of your front leg, but then you can defend that by lifting up your knee and blocking with your knee.

 

[dancingalone]

I dont know the technical side behind it because I wasnt there but Im sure there is a reason that kickboxers dont use a tkd stance.

I don't know anything about the whole WTF stance discussion, but kickboxers don't employ an extreme side stance because they want to keep all 4 striking limbs for ready deployment. A more frontal stance is needed for that.

 

[ATC]

I don't know anything about the whole WTF stance discussion, but kickboxers don't employ an extreme side stance because they want to keep all 4 striking limbs for ready deployment. A more frontal stance is needed for that.

What Dancingalone states is it in a nutshell. You need to be squared up for your hands. That is it. No need to worry about hands in Olympic sparring as you can't use them to the face at all. Has nothing to do with getting kicked in the leg. You either build up a tolerance for getting kicked in leg or you don't. You will be kicked in the legs regardless what stance you take.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

....The hook kick is not used as it will most always fall short and a simple lean back is all that is needed. Not to mention that an underneath bada kick is a simple counter to it as well.

Do you mean back kick rather than bada kick? Thanks.

 

[Gorilla]

Many of the Lead Leg Techs that Bill Wallace did have become very effective in WTF Style TKD. The ability to get the foot on the head because of the inconsistent scoring of EBP's has changed the game. Many of the Old assumptions do not apply!

 

[jthomas1600]

Another thing that you can do against a leg kicker is to go open stance on them. That way they don't get the clear shot to your front leg with their rear leg. The leg kicker can still try to kick the inside of your front leg, but then you can defend that by lifting up your knee and blocking with your knee.

This may be a good strategy for all the reasons you mentioned, but it also opens you up to an inadvertent groin shot. Even with all the protective gear that can be a hard to recover from sometimes.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Muay Thai has more weight on the back leg rather than the front, so I think that is what your friend is switching to. But still Muay Thai fighters kick each other in the leg all the time so I don't think it would completely solve the problem. Experiment with it and see what you come up with.

Another thing that you can do against a leg kicker is to go open stance on them. That way they don't get the clear shot to your front leg with their rear leg. The leg kicker can still try to kick the inside of your front leg, but then you can defend that by lifting up your knee and blocking with your knee.

Thats exactly what they told him to do, go an "open stance", so they did not have as clear a shot on his front leg.

 

[ATC]

Do you mean back kick rather than bada kick? Thanks.

No I do mean bada or pada. However a back kick depending on what side the hook is used will work also.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Bill Wallace’s stance I believe has much more to do with a rather sever knee injury he got when he trained Judo than anything else

From here

…began studying karate in February 1967 after suffering a right leg injury in a judo accident. The injury left him without the use of the leg in karate competition. Some observers said Wallace was committing martial arts suicide. Wallace, however, had other ideas.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

No I do mean bada or pada. However a back kick depending on what side the hook is used will work also.

What's a bada/pada kick? Thanks.