Belt Colours

[Gyakuto]

Poster often write that they’re a green, orange or blue belt, but am I right in thinking this means nothing since it probably depends upon the art as to what colour is what level? Ihave no 9dea of a poster’s level from the colour of their belt! Does the Japanese ‘kyu’ system not exist in the USA for Japanese MA?

 

[skribs]

Every art has different color schemes. Even Japanese arts. Even different schools in the same art. A quick google search of "Judo belt orders" has different lists with white, blue, and brown all being possible starting belt colors. Judo tended to have 6 kyus. Karate has different colors, and different number of kyus.

I studied at a Taekwondo school that also taught Hapkido. We had 12 "keub" ranks for Taekwondo and 7 for Hapkido. Other Taekwondo schools in our organization have 10 keubs, with a completely different color scheme. My school as a kid had 28 keubs.

Typical (10)	Kid TKD v1 (28)	Kid TKD v2 (19 ish)	Adult TKD (12)	HKD (7)
White White + Yellow Stripe Yellow Yellow + Green Stripe Green Green + Blue Stripe Blue Blue + Red Stripe Red Red + Black Stripe	White (+3 tape stripes) Yellow (+3 tape stripes) Orange (+3 tape stripes) Purple (+3 tape stripes) Green (+3 tape stripes) Blue (+3 tape stripes) Red (+3 tape stripes) Brown (+3 tape stripes)	White Yellow ...+White Stripe ...+Black Stripe (same colors as v1, but with white/black stripes)	White Yellow Purple Orange Green Green + Stripe Blue Blue + Stripe Blue + 2-Stripe Red Red + Stripe Red + 2-Stripe	White Yellow Purple Orange Green Blue Red

Notice how some of these are linear in color progression, some are not. The typical class and the classes I was in as a kid had the same number of stripes for each color, where the class I was in as an adult spread it out over time.

It also doesn't help that these colors are virtually meaningless even if you share a common belt system. The 10-keub system may be:

• 1-2 years at a mcdojo
• 2-3 year minimum (for fast-learning students), 3-5 year average at a typical school
• 5-10 years minimum at an anti-mcdojo

I realize these are Korean arts, not Japanese, but that's where my experience is. From what I can tell, you have similar situations in Japanese arts. Different arts, styles, lineages, schools, etc., have a different interpretation on what each kyu means for the practitioner, or even what each kyu means for a color.

 

[Gyakuto]

So quoting belt colours is meaningless really…what a muggle might do?

 

[skribs]

So quoting belt colours is meaningless really…what a muggle might do?

Almost all words are meaningless without context. For example, quoting that you are a doctor is meaningless, because if someone is bleeding out and you are a PHD in Fashion Design, then you're not very helpful.

If someone says they are a purple belt, it helps to know whether they're in BJJ or not. A purple belt in BJJ is a very high-level practitioner, but in most other arts it's going to be an intermediate belt. Someone claiming to be a purple belt in Taekwondo, that may be someone with 4-8 months of training in some schools, or it may be someone with 1-2 years of training in others. I doubt you'll find a purple belt in Taekwondo who's been training the art for 8 years. (Aside from cases where people have started over after a long break). Quoting the color gives a ballpark estimate of where people are.

Kyu number wouldn't work either. Is a 6th Kyu in Karate someone who just started, or is it someone who has progressed from 10th kyu to 6th kyu?

Time won't work. In one year at my Taekwondo school, most students earned 100-150 mat hours. I was on the mat for 1300 hours (as an instructor). In my BJJ class, I accumulated 40 mat hours before any of my fellow students that started before me, because they're going less hours per week and less consistently than me.

Mat hours could work, but very few people keep track of that. There's also diminishing returns. Someone with 100 mat hours in a month will be further ahead than someone with 20 mat hours in a month; but someone with 100 mat hours in 4 months will probably be ahead of someone with 100 mat hours in a month.

 

[Gyakuto]

It seems ranking are a waste of time because there are so many contexts within which to be viewed. Even ‘mat time’ is meaningless as a practitioner may have simply been rolling around on said mat, singing musical numbers. ‘Black belt’ rank is thus very misleading as is ’master’, ‘shihan’ or whatever.

Why do we bother?

 

[Hyoho]

It seems ranking are a waste of time because there are so many contexts within which to be viewed. Even ‘mat time’ is meaningless as a practitioner may have simply been rolling around on said mat, singing musical numbers. ‘Black belt’ rank is thus very misleading as is ’master’, ‘shihan’ or whatever.

Why do we bother?

As an educator Kano Jigoro's original concept was fine. Now it's blown all out of proportion in other countries. Coloured belts don't really count for much in Japan as kuro obi is a qualified beginner.

To experienced people they can see what rank someone is in a dojo.

 

[Gyakuto]

The belt system seems to have an overblown emphasis these days. It’s a means of implying a level competence but is like saying ”it’s 24 outside today” - meaningless without the units/context and, with regards MA, even that isn’t very useful unless you have an open-access syllabus which clearly states what is expected of the candidate for each grade across the art/it’s association.

 

[skribs]

It seems ranking are a waste of time because there are so many contexts within which to be viewed. Even ‘mat time’ is meaningless as a practitioner may have simply been rolling around on said mat, singing musical numbers. ‘Black belt’ rank is thus very misleading as is ’master’, ‘shihan’ or whatever.

Why do we bother?

Why do we have "high school diploma" when there's a difference between valedictorian and someone who graduated with a 1.0 GPA? Why do we have "college degree" when there's a difference between an associate's and a doctorate? Why do we have a post count on this site, when some people post a single sentence and other people post a whole chapter?

If you go to a Judo tournament, chances are people of the same kyu level have a similar experience level. If you go to a Taekwondo tournament, chances are most green belts are about the same level. It's not always the case, but it is enough times you can expect it.

It's really useful for individual schools. A belt will tell:

1. The instructors where you are in the curriculum, so they know what to teach you and to what level of detail
2. The students around where you are in the curriculum, so they know whether to look to you for guidance, if you are going to be good competition for them in sparring, or if they should be the one guiding you
3. The prospects around how long you've been going, so they know how much to judge the school based on you

For #1, if you are a green belt in my Taekwondo class, then I'm going to assume you know the basic kicks and stances. I'm going to teach you the green belt form and advanced kicks, and I'm going to go into more depth with you on the basic kicks and earlier forms than I would have in those classes.

For #2, if you are a green belt in Taekwondo class, then the white and yellow belts will be looking up to you. They know you've already passed a test on their forms, so if they have questions, they might ask you. A red belt isn't going to ask you about the red belt form, because they know you're not there yet. But they might have some tips on your green belt form.

For #3, prospective students will probably see the belt order on your website or your welcome packet. They're not really going to judge you based on your white belts, because you've had very little time with them. But the higher the belt color (especially black belts) and they will be judging the school based on them.

 

[Gyakuto]

Why do we have "high school diploma" when there's a difference between valedictorian and someone who graduated with a 1.0 GPA? Why do we have "college degree" when there's a difference between an associate's and a doctorate? Why do we have a post count on this site, when some people post a single sentence and other people post a whole chapter?

I’m afraid I don’t really understand these examples. We have nationwide examination boards for school children so there is some standardisation across the country. The college stuff means nothing to me!

Your MA argument confirms that belts are really only for ‘internal purposes’. Only the exact same school can make direct comparisons with belts.

 

[skribs]

I’m afraid I don’t really understand these examples. We have nationwide examination boards for school children so there is some standardisation across the country. The college stuff means nothing to me!

There is no standardized national exam that every student takes. The standardized national tests use a sample of students, they are not compulsory. There are many different "standardized" tests that are issued at the state or local level. These standardized tests don't measure intelligence or potential. They measure your preparedness for those tests.

They also have a range of scores available. This is something you really don't have in martial arts. Someone might graduate high school with a 2.3/4.0 GPA and a score of 970/1600 on a standardized test, but they will have the same high school diploma as someone who graduated with a 4.0 GPA and score of 1600. You don't see martial artists who are "4th kyu in karate with an average test grade of 3.5 and an athleticism index of 72/100". You just see 4th kyu, in the same way that everyone with a high school diploma has a high school diploma.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts...no colored belt ranks

 

[frank raud]

Belts( and kyu rankings) have always been only valid for the school and possibly the organization that provides the ranking. A TKD black belt is not the equivalent of a judo black belt, which is not equivalent to a BJJ black belt, which is not equal to a Shotokan black belt.

 

[_Simon_]

Yeah you're generally right in that it doesn't necessarily mean much when someone says the colour belt they are. The kyu system etc makes more sense to quote. Every time someone asks me what colour belt I am I will tell them, and they won't have ANY idea what that even means, which makes me wonder why they ask haha, but I just try to generally explain the kyu system as simply as I can.

Belts do mean something within the club, but there are alot of times it can actually be understood and recognised more broadly. Eg a Shotokan brown belt would be recognised amongst all different Shotokan groups as meaning something in particular.

And in general, the colours of the belts are supposed to get darker as you progress until you reach black belt.

And funnily, within Kyokushin the first coloured rank after white was orange belt, but many changed it to red belt, which many saw as controversial haha, as red belt was seen as the highest level belt in many MA circles!

So, belts mean something, and they don't, and everything in between . I certainly don't go the extreme to say they're "meaningless".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In gradulate school, you may take a class. The requirement of that class is you need to read a book, and write a report at the end of that semester. Depending on your final report, the professor will give you the grade.

A black belt is like the bachelor degree. After you have obtained your BB, you no longer need a MA teacher. You can advance your MA for the rest of your life all by yourself.

In other words, you start to have self-study ability after You have your BB.

 

[isshinryuronin]

After you have obtained your BB, you no longer need a MA teacher

This is when you need a teacher the most! That's when you have just gotten to the point where you gain the ability to understand the lessons.

In other words, you start to have self-study ability after You have your BB

The qualifying word in your statement is "start." You have a long way to go after black belt before you have the ability to effectively self-study.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You have a long way to go after black belt before you have the ability to effectively self-study.

How long do you think one will still need MA teacher after BB?

- 5 years?
- 10 years?
- 20 years?
- for the rest of his life?

 

[tkdroamer]

How long do you think one will still need MA teacher after BB?

- 5 years?
- 10 years?
- 20 years?
- for the rest of his life?

Hopefully, self-study started at day one.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

This is when you need a teacher the most! That's when you have just gotten to the point where you gain the ability to understand the lessons.

The qualifying word in your statement is "start." You have a long way to go after black belt before you have the ability to effectively self-study.

Depends on what black belt rank means in your system. Any BJJ black belt should be capable of continuous improvement via effective self-study.

 

[MadMartigan]

How long do you think one will still need MA teacher after BB?

- 5 years?
- 10 years?
- 20 years?
- for the rest of his life?

I like your last suggestion. I'd say the best martial artists continue to find new ways and people to learn from. Just as the best fighter in the world still needs a coach to continue to improve, why should the TMA be different? We may be in charge of what direction we go (the self directed part), but the greatest benefit will come from having that outside perspective picking out technical details etc.

 

[skribs]

Hopefully, self-study started at day one.

Depends on what black belt rank means in your system. Any BJJ black belt should be capable of continuous improvement via effective self-study.

There's a difference in what you should be doing for self-study at various levels.

• Beginners should largely be practicing the basics or the rote curriculum. They should be trying to parrot what they're learning in class.
• Intermediate students should be identifying what they are weak on while working on the basics or rote curriculum.
• Advanced students should start looking into other ways of improving themselves (private lessons, videos, online discussions, cross-training, etc.)
• Experts should be developing their own style or game

All of these involve "self-study" and none of them preclude an instructor. Or at least a mentor or peers that can help you.