Beautiful Ax
- Thread starter ATC
- Start date
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Hate to harp on the hands up thing, but Red wouldn't have been hit in the jaw by the ax kick if he had his hands up to begin with. It was a nice kick, but let's tap on the brakes here and keep things in perspective...
OP
OP
ATC
Senior Master
True, but he was in the middle of kicking. The hands up thing is like beating a dead horse. You can say hands up hands up hands up all day long, but in the end in every art someone gets knocked out, or at least hit in the head. Boxers have their hands up all the time and still get knocked out. So after every knock out it is easy to say "Hand Up". It's kind of obvious.
So no one should ever get knocked out again. Just keep your hands up. It's just not that simple. I have seen people KO'd with their hands up. Just saying it and doing it wont prevent KO's.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Different strokes for different folks. Sorry, I just can't get behind praising an ax kick that lands because the victim dropped his hands as part of his kicking action.
And good (kick)boxers don't drop their hands when they are kicking. Good boxers don't drop their hands as a matter of course. Nor Muay Thai, nor any other striking art other than Olympic rules TKD. It might be obvious to say hands up, but it bears repeating apparently.
It was a nice ax kick though. Good timing by Blue unless he just got lucky by throwing it at exactly the right moment.
OP
OP
ATC
Senior Master
So according to your reasoning, no "good" kick boxer or Muay Thai boxer should ever be KO'd cause they keep there hands up? Hmmm....OK, if you say so.
Muhammad Ali kept his hands down and just moved his head and KO'd many good fighters that kept their hands up. You get caught you get caught...hand up or down, does not matter. Yes keep them up to cut down the chances of getting caught, but even with your hands up you can get caught. Just because your hands are up does not mean you wont get caught. Just because your hands were down and you got caught does not mean you would have gotten caught if you hands were up either.
People say "oh if his hands were up he would not have been KO'd or caught" all the time. But just saying keep your hands up does not make the statement true. Your hands cannot cover all of you head.
Don't get me wrong. Yes keep your hands up to help block but you won't block all. Just saying it won't help in many situations.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Interesting conversation. I wouldn't call it a 'beautiful' axe kick. It was an 'effective' axe kick which I guess make it beautiful but mechanically it pretty much just was an axe kick
The interesting part to me is that in TKD* that's pretty much how I learned to do an axe kick. With hard head contact discouraged or not allowed, and no traps, you can bring the axe kick up the open side. In HKD, I was taught to bring the axe kick up the back side in order to make it harder to see and much harder to block or trap.
* Note - this is probably more a reflection of the experiences and backgrounds of my instructors than a formal distinction in the two arts
The interesting part to me is that in TKD* that's pretty much how I learned to do an axe kick. With hard head contact discouraged or not allowed, and no traps, you can bring the axe kick up the open side. In HKD, I was taught to bring the axe kick up the back side in order to make it harder to see and much harder to block or trap.
* Note - this is probably more a reflection of the experiences and backgrounds of my instructors than a formal distinction in the two arts
OP
OP
ATC
Senior Master
Any kick that lands flush and results in a KO is beautiful, other wise it is just a kick.
OP
OP
ATC
Senior Master
Yeah, but at least something was explained and understood, not just the obvious.
Bottom line is the same. Keep your hands up, you will lose by points. Keep your hands down you MIGHT lose by KO. The likelihood of losing by KO is less than losing by points. Keep your hands down sports fighters or a loss is all but guaranteed.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Ah, here's a new contribution to the thread. I guess keeping the hands up hinders a TKD player in some fashion? Perhaps it is faster to let your hands fall and allow your body to torque freely?
dancingalone
Grandmaster
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
There are three at least rationale reasons I've heard:
1) To bait the opponent
2) To increase stability in spinning and twisting motions
3) Since punches to the head are not allowed, there's no real reason to keep them up, so it saves energy not to have to. Your gambling that you can get your hands to protect you head faster than they can get their foot to your head.
In fact it does slow your kicks down to fight with a constant high guard AND it leaves open the most sought after and easiest to hit target.
You may not want to believe that but under the rules of the game that is the way it has to be done.
I will grant you that in a street fight it is not the best way to go about things, but I believe that the video in the OP was from a sporting event and not from a street fight. And in the sport of TKD, fighting with a constant high guard will almost always result in YOU LOSING where fighting with a low guard MIGHT get you KO'd
dancingalone
Grandmaster
That sounds reasonable to me. I suppose I'm talking broadswords in a rapier situation. Worlds apart indeed.
OP
OP
ATC
Senior Master
You can keep your hands in a neutral position to protect both head and body, but after some time many get lazy or just feel that they can move the head enough as not to get hit in it.
I like to keep front hand just below the belt while the rear hand is held chest high. This way the front hand can guard the trunk with a slight twist of the waist and the rear hand can move up quickly to guard the head.
Funny thing is that when you get caught in the head most times it is not because your hands are up or down, but rather because you just did not see the kick coming or got confused as to where the kick was going. I have seen many get caught with spinning kicks because they thought the kick was going body and dropped hand to protect the body only to be fooled and have it taken to the head.
If you watch the clip closely the guy in red did have his hands high enough to guard but the kick was placed directly in-between the two arms. Also because the guy in the red was kicking and leaning slightly back at the same time the angle made it impossible to guard. In this case hands up made no difference. All he could have hoped for was to deflect some of the power. And even that was a long shot due to the timing and angle of the kick.
I like to keep front hand just below the belt while the rear hand is held chest high. This way the front hand can guard the trunk with a slight twist of the waist and the rear hand can move up quickly to guard the head.
Funny thing is that when you get caught in the head most times it is not because your hands are up or down, but rather because you just did not see the kick coming or got confused as to where the kick was going. I have seen many get caught with spinning kicks because they thought the kick was going body and dropped hand to protect the body only to be fooled and have it taken to the head.
If you watch the clip closely the guy in red did have his hands high enough to guard but the kick was placed directly in-between the two arms. Also because the guy in the red was kicking and leaning slightly back at the same time the angle made it impossible to guard. In this case hands up made no difference. All he could have hoped for was to deflect some of the power. And even that was a long shot due to the timing and angle of the kick.
