Bare knuckle for self-defense?

[Alan0354]

I never did much board breaking, I have seen boards and bricks broken. Some were impressive, some not so much...

I am not, you know how a little drink kind of help too that time!!!

 

[Flying Crane]

Your friend broke his leg on a kick? I broke my foot on a buddies shin that checked my kick. I had to learn that hard lesson twice. Same foot, same guy, same shin. He is still my very close friend.

Any experiment should be run multiple times before you can be certain of the results. The first few times might just be an anomoly…

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Any experiment should be run multiple times before you can be certain of the results. The first few times might just be an anomoly…

Or, I’m just a dummy.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I am not, you know how a little drink kind of help too that time!!!

Hmm? A drink? I don’t get your meaning.

 

[Alan0354]

Hmm? A drink? I don’t get your meaning.

In did the board breaking after a few drinks(alcohol) with my stepsons.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In did the board breaking after a few drinks(alcohol) with my stepsons.

Oh I get it.

 

[Alan0354]

Oh I get it.

Big mistake!!! I since put the whole setup away.

FYI, the boards and holder I was talking about are those reusable boards that you break, then slide the two half back together and you break it again. I somehow bought them in the 90s. Used it for a few times, after broke my knuckle, they all went into the shed.

I even bought a board holder, it can hold like 6 or more boards together, you can hold the whole thing for people to break and you don't have to worry about people kicking your fingers by mistake. You know how it takes a few people to hold the stack of board for the demonstrator to kick or punch. Those people must be afraid it the guy missed and kick their fingers!!!

The holder even have strap so you can strap it onto a heavy bag to break boards solo by yourself.

The whole setup is in the shed since. Forget it. I punch pole, but I am not going to try that anymore. I have a suspicion those re-breakable boards are harder to break than the real boards particularly you stack them up with no space in between.( day and night difference if they put a little space between boards, they do that in shows so they can break a whole big stack of boards. If they don't put space in between, I double they can break even half or less, it's like you break the first one, the momentum keep going to the second and the third and so on).

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Big mistake!!! I since put the whole setup away.

FYI, the boards and holder I was talking about are those reusable boards that you break, then slide the two half back together and you break it again. I somehow bought them in the 90s. Used it for a few times, after broke my knuckle, they all went into the shed.

I even bought a board holder, it can hold like 6 or more boards together, you can hold the whole thing for people to break and you don't have to worry about people kicking your fingers by mistake. You know how it takes a few people to hold the stack of board for the demonstrator to kick or punch. Those people must be afraid it the guy missed and kick their fingers!!!

The holder even have strap so you can strap it onto a heavy bag to break boards solo by yourself.

The whole setup is in the shed since. Forget it. I punch pole, but I am not going to try that anymore. I have a suspicion those re-breakable boards are harder to break than the real boards particularly you stack them up with no space in between.( day and night difference if they put a little space between boards, they do that in shows so they can break a whole big stack of boards. If they don't put space in between, I double they can break even half or less, it's like you break the first one, the momentum keep going to the second and the third and so on).

Yes the spacers are just a trick. I saw a big guy stack bricks with no spacers and break the one you ask for in the stack. I suspect trickery but I couldn’t see how.

 

[Alan0354]

Yes the spacers are just a trick. I saw a big guy stack bricks with no spacers and break the one you ask for in the stack. I suspect trickery but I couldn’t see how.

Ha ha, that's beyond me. But that's impressing.

 

[Barry Drennan]

Speaking from 51 years of unofficial and official involvement in striking faces/heads/and the occasional helmet; I definitely support this thread's general theme that naked closed fist knuckle punches can for various results result in damages and broken hands. As an instructor in WWII Combatives (Fairbairn Gutter Fighting) my concern goes more to after the fact of damaging hands than to the fact of damaged hands. IF general practitioner or competitive fighter breaks or badly damages his hand they can also chose to stop at the very moment and go home. However for self-defense, doorman, security, LEO, Private Contractor, military situations, where the now is a life-threat, the greater concern is how to continue. This "How to continue" concern applies to the continuance of unarmed-combat, weapons and tech handling, certain scenario of mobility issues e.g. climbing, scrambling, crawling, fast returns to vertical from horizontal. Failures in all of these increase survival-risk-probabilities. The then begs the question; "Why use the naked closed fist as a go-to, when there of other more functional lees vulnerable methods available".?

 

[Buka]

Welcome to MartialTalk, Barry. Hope you like it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Does anyone have experience hitting someone in the face in self-defense with a closed fist? I'm talking about striking with the knuckles, not a hammer fist or anything.

Of course. I'm betting most here have.

Have you been witness to this event?

I think it's safe to say I've seen the aftermath (if not the actual punch) a few thousand times.

Did the striker break his hand?

Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. Mostly no. Sometimes they get a fight bite, and I see them with NASTY infections. That's generally worse than a boxers fracture. For real fun, try getting the fight bite AND a boxers fracture. Osteomyelitis is sooooo much fun.

Do you see closed fist strikes to an opponents face as a viable technique for self-defense? Do you feel confident and plan on using a closed fist?

Of course. But I caution students to avoid punching someone in the mouth. It's not really all that effective, and fight bites can be really difficult to treat.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Speaking from 51 years of unofficial and official involvement in striking faces/heads/and the occasional helmet; I definitely support this thread's general theme that naked closed fist knuckle punches can for various results result in damages and broken hands. As an instructor in WWII Combatives (Fairbairn Gutter Fighting) my concern goes more to after the fact of damaging hands than to the fact of damaged hands. IF general practitioner or competitive fighter breaks or badly damages his hand they can also chose to stop at the very moment and go home. However for self-defense, doorman, security, LEO, Private Contractor, military situations, where the now is a life-threat, the greater concern is how to continue. This "How to continue" concern applies to the continuance of unarmed-combat, weapons and tech handling, certain scenario of mobility issues e.g. climbing, scrambling, crawling, fast returns to vertical from horizontal. Failures in all of these increase survival-risk-probabilities. The then begs the question; "Why use the naked closed fist as a go-to, when there of other more functional lees vulnerable methods available".?

Welcome!

 

[Buka]

To me, the biggest problem are basics. We all learn how to punch with the front two knuckles, the wrist kept straight etc.

But then, as you progress, that basic punch teaching usually gets left out in the cold. In my opinion, it should be addressed, even if briefly, in every Martial Arts class you ever take or teach. Every single one of them.

I've broken some body parts over the years, but never a hand. There hasn't been one day that I haven't thought about the proper ways to punch.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

To me, the biggest problem are basics. We all learn how to punch with the front two knuckles, the wrist kept straight etc.

But then, as you progress, that basic punch teaching usually gets left out in the cold. In my opinion, it should be addressed, even if briefly, in every Martial Arts class you ever take or teach. Every single one of them.

I've broken some body parts over the years, but never a hand. There hasn't been one day that I haven't thought about the proper ways to punch.

I am going to be willing to bet you punched someone in the face during your years of not breaking your hand. It’s amazing to me when experienced martial artists practically claim it can’t be done. I must be the luckiest guy around in that case.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

To me, the biggest problem are basics. We all learn how to punch with the front two knuckles, the wrist kept straight etc.

But then, as you progress, that basic punch teaching usually gets left out in the cold. In my opinion, it should be addressed, even if briefly, in every Martial Arts class you ever take or teach. Every single one of them.

I've broken some body parts over the years, but never a hand. There hasn't been one day that I haven't thought about the proper ways to punch.

As I said earlier I broke my hand during a sweep/throw but never from punching. I’ve had my bell rung plenty of times to be sure. I’m not sure if anybody broke their hand on me. It’s possible.

 

[drop bear]

To me, the biggest problem are basics. We all learn how to punch with the front two knuckles, the wrist kept straight etc.

But then, as you progress, that basic punch teaching usually gets left out in the cold. In my opinion, it should be addressed, even if briefly, in every Martial Arts class you ever take or teach. Every single one of them.

I've broken some body parts over the years, but never a hand. There hasn't been one day that I haven't thought about the proper ways to punch.

I think there is an issue throwing overhands as well. If you keep the shots a little shorter and cleaner they seem to be friendlier on the old knucks

 

[drop bear]

As I said earlier I broke my hand during a sweep/throw but never from punching. I’ve had my bell rung plenty of times to be sure. I’m not sure if anybody broke their hand on me. It’s possible.

A lot of ours was from jits. I fell straight on my finger and was in a cast for a couple of weeks.

It would not have been fight ending. I drove to the hospital with it.

 

[Buka]

I think there is an issue throwing overhands as well. If you keep the shots a little shorter and cleaner they seem to be friendlier on the old knucks

I think you're right. The shorter the punch the easier it is to naturally keep your form. When I say "naturally" I mean without even thinking about it.

One of the challenges I faced was in boxing. I went to the best boxing gym around our parts, a good old fashioned boxing gym owned and run by a retired pro boxer.

The trainers, all of them there, taught left hooks (or right) where you hit with the smaller two knuckles. Our hands were wrapped and taped, of course, but I still wouldn't do it. I used to alter my hook punch and throw it with a vertical punch rather than a horizontal one, hitting only with my middle knuckle. Every boxing trainer I met, from a lot of different boxing gyms, taught it the same way. I still disagree with it. Because that's how you break your hands. It's why it's called a "boxer's fracture."

It worked well for me, never hurt my hand, landed a lot of hooks. I like really short hook punches. Probably why I like just what you said, "keeping the shots a little shorter."

The gym had a small ring, under sixteen foot. It gave you no room to run, made you really focus on technique and shorter punches.

The gym was there for a lot of years. Then Boston got two weeks of torrential rain, real end of the world stuff. The ceiling collapsed. Downstairs where the lockers were flooded to six feet deep. The building had to be condemned. I actually cried.

 

[Flying Crane]

The trainers, all of them there, taught left hooks (or right) where you hit with the smaller two knuckles. Our hands were wrapped and taped, of course, but I still wouldn't do it. I used to alter my hook punch and throw it with a vertical punch rather than a horizontal one, hitting only with my middle knuckle. Every boxing trainer I met, from a lot of different boxing gyms, taught it the same way. I still disagree with it. Because that's how you break your hands. It's why it's called a "boxer's fracture."

It worked well for me, never hurt my hand, landed a lot of hooks. I like really short hook punches. Probably why I like just what you said, "keeping the shots a little shorter."

I agree. All you need to do is train that hook on a heavy bag, without any wraps or gloves or support or protection for the hands. With the horizontal fist, it is very easy to land with the last knuckles, and that risks injury. You can feel that potential on the bag, even if you don’t get injured.

Vertical fist is better. Avoids the injury much better. That is how you need to train it if you might need to use it outside the ring, without wraps and gloves.