Ban knives, save lives...where was the "assault" rifle in these killings

[Bill Mattocks]

As I pointed out, people who can blow up into a murderous rampage are not best served in a jail. A secure hospital and medication under supervision of a specialized doctor work so much better. And it's safer for all involved....

And as I've pointed out, if anyone can find a reliable way to identify which ones are going to go wonky before they do so, let us all know. Because I can't think of a way. All I keep hearing is 'well, there must be some way of identifying...' Well, there isn't. I mean, if there is, let's hear it. I'd be all for it. Long time ago, there was a pseudo-science called phrenology that claimed to be able to identify criminal types based on the lumps and bumps and general shape of their skulls; seriously. We know that's bunk now...but we don't have anything better to replace it with. It is possible to identify the really crazy ones in some cases...but in many cases, it just isn't possible. So instead of continuing to say 'lock up the crazy ones', tell us how to identify them.

 

[Wo Fat]

And as I've pointed out, if anyone can find a reliable way to identify which ones are going to go wonky before they do so, let us all know. Because I can't think of a way. All I keep hearing is 'well, there must be some way of identifying...' Well, there isn't. I mean, if there is, let's hear it. I'd be all for it. Long time ago, there was a pseudo-science called phrenology that claimed to be able to identify criminal types based on the lumps and bumps and general shape of their skulls; seriously. We know that's bunk now...but we don't have anything better to replace it with. It is possible to identify the really crazy ones in some cases...but in many cases, it just isn't possible. So instead of continuing to say 'lock up the crazy ones', tell us how to identify them.

To the extent that our country has the highest incarceration rate in the world, it would seem that the opportunity to study people's violent and anti-social behavior is quite high. I can't be sure if it's government or if it's people themselves, but you've got to work pretty doggone hard to be the "free-est" country while being the country with the highest incarceration rate. Why not work just a little bit harder and learn how to reduce the incarceration rate through studying the very people who probably shouldn't be in prison in the first place?

Just a thought (simplistic as it may be).

 

[Bill Mattocks]

To the extent that our country has the highest incarceration rate in the world, it would seem that the opportunity to study people's violent and anti-social behavior is quite high. I can't be sure if it's government or if it's people themselves, but you've got to work pretty doggone hard to be the "free-est" country while being the country with the highest incarceration rate. Why not work just a little bit harder and learn how to reduce the incarceration rate through studying the very people who probably shouldn't be in prison in the first place?

Just a thought (simplistic as it may be).

I have no idea how to tie that to anything concrete.

 

[Wo Fat]

Me neither, to be honest.

 

[ballen0351]

To the extent that our country has the highest incarceration rate in the world, it would seem that the opportunity to study people's violent and anti-social behavior is quite high. I can't be sure if it's government or if it's people themselves, but you've got to work pretty doggone hard to be the "free-est" country while being the country with the highest incarceration rate. Why not work just a little bit harder and learn how to reduce the incarceration rate through studying the very people who probably shouldn't be in prison in the first place?

Just a thought (simplistic as it may be).

Maybe we have the highest rate of incarceration because we have a ton of criminals. Even small towns have murders rapes robbery. We also have some of the top lawenforcemnt technology and training in the world which means we are better able to catch criminals. Just a thought

 

[granfire]

And as I've pointed out, if anyone can find a reliable way to identify which ones are going to go wonky before they do so, let us all know. Because I can't think of a way. All I keep hearing is 'well, there must be some way of identifying...' Well, there isn't. I mean, if there is, let's hear it. I'd be all for it. Long time ago, there was a pseudo-science called phrenology that claimed to be able to identify criminal types based on the lumps and bumps and general shape of their skulls; seriously. We know that's bunk now...but we don't have anything better to replace it with. It is possible to identify the really crazy ones in some cases...but in many cases, it just isn't possible. So instead of continuing to say 'lock up the crazy ones', tell us how to identify them.

Look in the othr thread, ballen telling the story of one of his regulars killing two cops, the day they let him out of the hospital.

Most of the time the signs are there. Somebody not completely self absorbed sees things.
two or more puzzle pieces make a picture. I am not talking about pseudo science. I am talking about the real thing. The cut feeling friends and family or co-workers have, making somebody see a professional.

You have seasoned mental workers look at a person and they can pretty accurately assess somebody. In a very short time. Now, I would like to know the qualification of the doctor who let ballen's guy go....while I am waiting for his recent nut-job customer to 'safe the world' by killing 50 children....

No, you can't catch them all, not all before they act. But you can sift out a lot of the loonies.
I mean, there is no harm done having one crazy loon flash people at the main train station demanding a certain ethnic population with larg endowments (one of my mom's customers...shocking travelers one fine morning...) a wee bit of a different story having individuals with strong aversions against certain groups...or delusions and voices in their heads.

The line from using psychiatry as political weapon to keeping society relatively safe from disturbed people is not that fine. Not at all!

But it seems by looking from the outside in, in the US those people fall off the abyss. Then they make up the statistics of jail fatalities, because even rapists and murderers don't want a thing to do with the crazies.

I don't think it helps to have the current trend continue to act like 'it's all in the head' and ignore that some people just can't function in society.
Nice idea to not hide them away in a sanatorium, but trying to force them go main stream?

 

[Wo Fat]

Maybe we have the highest rate of incarceration because we have a ton of criminals. Even small towns have murders rapes robbery. We also have some of the top lawenforcemnt technology and training in the world which means we are better able to catch criminals. Just a thought

Well we're better able to catch somebody. If our law enforcement tech and training are as top notch as you say, them I'm assuming that they are better able to distinguish between the criminal the mentally ill.

 

[ballen0351]

Well we're better able to catch somebody. If our law enforcement tech and training are as top notch as you say, them I'm assuming that they are better able to distinguish between the criminal the mentally ill.

I totally agree with that. I've seen many mentally ill people arrested for crimes because there's no real system for keeping mentally I'll people locked up until they commit a crime. But when you bring up keeping people locked up for mental health issues you go down a very muddy road I'm not sure people want to go down.

 

[ballen0351]

To add to that I've taken many people to the hospital instead of jail for crimes and not charged them for them to only be released a few hours days or weeks later. The very 1st time I was shot at was by an elderly WW2 vet that thought we were German solders attacking him. Clearly he was mentally Ill. He was walking into a school with a gun on his "patrol" thinking he was in the war. He shot and me and 2 other officers. Got him finally detained and transported to hospital he was released 3 weeks later. He ended up dying a few weeks later but people like that no matter how sad the story is should not be allowed back into public.

 

[granfire]

To add to that I've taken many people to the hospital instead of jail for crimes and not charged them for them to only be released a few hours days or weeks later. The very 1st time I was shot at was by an elderly WW2 vet that thought we were German solders attacking him. Clearly he was mentally Ill. He was walking into a school with a gun on his "patrol" thinking he was in the war. He shot and me and 2 other officers. Got him finally detained and transported to hospital he was released 3 weeks later. He ended up dying a few weeks later but people like that no matter how sad the story is should not be allowed back into public.

A prime indicator that the cheese has slipped off the cracker.

And prime example for somebody who needs to be hospitalized, rather than thrown in jail....


man, the system need fixin....
but OH EM GEE, their civil rights are violated....

 

[Wo Fat]

To add to that I've taken many people to the hospital instead of jail for crimes and not charged them for them to only be released a few hours days or weeks later. The very 1st time I was shot at was by an elderly WW2 vet that thought we were German solders attacking him. Clearly he was mentally Ill. He was walking into a school with a gun on his "patrol" thinking he was in the war. He shot and me and 2 other officers. Got him finally detained and transported to hospital he was released 3 weeks later. He ended up dying a few weeks later but people like that no matter how sad the story is should not be allowed back into public.

And there it is. Law enforcement (and teachers for that matter) are usually the first form of public contact with the mentally unsound. And you often make critical judgments about who might need to go to jail, and who might need a stay in the psych ward. Personally, I don't think that should be your burden (but we might as well pay you better if it is).

I agree that we need to be careful about being too quick to tag people as mentally unsound, when they might be criminals. At the same time, we have to be extremely careful about determining that people are just "criminals" when they might be mentally unsound.

 

[ballen0351]

Part of the issue become once they have committed the crime there is usually a victim involved that demands justice and they don't care if they are mentally ill. Another issue is all the people that try to claim mental illness as a criminal defense when they and their lawyers know its not true but its a good defense. It makes the public in general think like the boy who cried wolf and they are less willing to accept real claims of mental illness. Another factor is we know as law enforcement if I take this guy to the hospital he will be out tomorrow or even later today and I'll be dealing with him again. If I charge him with a crime he will be in the detention center for a while I won't see him again and the court system can order him to health evaluation and treatment. So sometime is better for the person in my eyes to be arrested and forced into treatment.
Another issue that I think hurts law enforcement specifically and I know has lead to deaths is we tend to look at our frequent flyers as harmless crazy people. We let our guards down because its just "Joe" he's nuts but he won't hurt you. Then you meet Joe on a really bad day for him and he takes your life. That's what happened to my friend. I don't want to second guess or Monday morning quarterback him but he went to the guys house for loud music complaint. Talk to the guys mom who lived in the trailer across the street she said her sons not acting right again they walked over. Knocked on door. Mr Zito warned them he would kill them if they mess with him. Knowing oh its crazy old Mr Zito he talks a lot of crap but he's just crazy they open the screen door to talk to him he pull out a shotgun and shot my friend in the face. Then shot his back up in the back as he ran for cover. I teach this case at the police academy along with a section on suicide by cop or officer assisted suicide. I try to remind officers and I think people in general need to remember these people the truly mentally unstable in a normal state or slightly less agitated state may be harmless but you don't know what state they are in don't ever let your guard down because its just "Joe" he's just a nut he won't hurt anyone. "Joe" might not want to or even know he's doing it but crazy old "Joe" can kill you.

 

[ballen0351]

I've done a lot of research and case study on law enforcement interaction with mentally ill I teach a few blocks of instruction on it at the police academy. I've read hundreds of cases just like my friends case. Its a topic I'm passionate about. Not only loosing a friend but I was also used by a mentally unstable man for police assisted suicide. I could go on for hours about the research and techniques to better deal with and handle mentally I'll people. Not just law enforcemt either should be aware of this. That crazy harmless homeless guy by your office or the crazy man in the store yelling at the bananas they can hurt you.
I learned more about the move theater incident we had the other day here about the guy that wanted to kill 50 kids to save the world. He was in there 10 min cussing yelling and throwing things and nobody called the police because he was just being crazy the witnesses and employees said. They thought he would just go away. It wasn't until he started shorting people with his finger that they got upset.

 

[granfire]

Part of the issue become once they have committed the crime there is usually a victim involved that demands justice and they don't care if they are mentally ill. Another issue is all the people that try to claim mental illness as a criminal defense when they and their lawyers know its not true but its a good defense. It makes the public in general think like the boy who cried wolf and they are less willing to accept real claims of mental illness. Another factor is we know as law enforcement if I take this guy to the hospital he will be out tomorrow or even later today and I'll be dealing with him again. If I charge him with a crime he will be in the detention center for a while I won't see him again and the court system can order him to health evaluation and treatment. So sometime is better for the person in my eyes to be arrested and forced into treatment.
Another issue that I think hurts law enforcement specifically and I know has lead to deaths is we tend to look at our frequent flyers as harmless crazy people. We let our guards down because its just "Joe" he's nuts but he won't hurt you. Then you meet Joe on a really bad day for him and he takes your life. That's what happened to my friend. I don't want to second guess or Monday morning quarterback him but he went to the guys house for loud music complaint. Talk to the guys mom who lived in the trailer across the street she said her sons not acting right again they walked over. Knocked on door. Mr Zito warned them he would kill them if they mess with him. Knowing oh its crazy old Mr Zito he talks a lot of crap but he's just crazy they open the screen door to talk to him he pull out a shotgun and shot my friend in the face. Then shot his back up in the back as he ran for cover. I teach this case at the police academy along with a section on suicide by cop or officer assisted suicide. I try to remind officers and I think people in general need to remember these people the truly mentally unstable in a normal state or slightly less agitated state may be harmless but you don't know what state they are in don't ever let your guard down because its just "Joe" he's just a nut he won't hurt anyone. "Joe" might not want to or even know he's doing it but crazy old "Joe" can kill you.

Not to mention crazy joe might not recognize his buddy officer ballen....or the voices tell him he is dealing with the devil...

 

[Sukerkin]

First off, I just want to thank Ballen and his fellow officers for the things they have to wade in every day that the rest of us do not want to have to deal with :sensei rei:. I know it's not my country so what he does does not directly affect me but I can still feel grateful that there are those that do that job wherever they are in the world.

My question is why it is that these 'crazy' people are not being taken care of by a more appropriate means of management than the police force? A close family member is a manic depressive paranoid schizophrenic (collect the set and win a free sticker album ) and I have had to deal with some very unpleasant circumstances because of that condition. But none of those circumstances necessitated calling the police - that is what the specialist doctors and nurses of the National Health Service are for. Is there no similar provision for care and treatment in the USA?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

My question is why it is that these 'crazy' people are not being taken care of by a more appropriate means of management than the police force? A close family member is a manic depressive paranoid schizophrenic (collect the set and win a free sticker album ) and I have had to deal with some very unpleasant circumstances because of that condition. But none of those circumstances necessitated calling the police - that is what the specialist doctors and nurses of the National Health Service are for. Is there no similar provision for care and treatment in the USA?

To put it bluntly, no. A person who is mentally unwell cannot be compelled to undergo treatment, cannot be forced to take prescribed medication, and certainly cannot be involuntarily committed except under some very specific circumstances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_commitment#United_States

In 1975, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that involuntary hospitalization and/or treatment violates an individual's civil rights in O'Connor v. Donaldson. This ruling forced individual states to change their statutes. For example, the individual must be exhibiting behavior that is a danger to himself or others in order to be held, the hold must be for evaluation only and a court order must be received for more than very short term treatment or hospitalization (typically no longer than 72 hours). This ruling has severely limited involuntary treatment and hospitalization in the U.S.[21] In the U.S. the specifics of the relevant statutes vary from state to state.[22]
This was the case in a famous United States Supreme Court decision in 1975, O'Connor v. Donaldson, when Kenneth Donaldson, a patient committed to Florida State Hospital, sued the hospital and staff for confining him for 15 years against his will. The decision means that it is unconstitutional to commit for treatment a person who is not imminently a danger to himself or others and is capable to a minimal degree of surviving on his own.[23]
An example of involuntary commitment procedures is the Baker Act used in Florida. Under this law, a person may be committed only if they present a danger to themselves or others. A police officer, doctor, nurse or licensed mental health professional may initiate an involuntary examination that lasts for up to 72 hours. Within this time, two psychiatrists may ask a judge to extend the commitment and order involuntary treatment. The Baker Act also requires that all commitment orders be reviewed every six months in addition to ensuring certain rights to the committed including the right to contact outsiders. Also, a person under an involuntary commitment order has a right to counsel and a right to have the state provide a public defender if they cannot afford a lawyer. While the Florida law allows police to initiate the examination, it is the recommendations of two psychiatrists that guide the decisions of the court.

And you must also understand that both conservatives and liberals tend to work to weaken involuntary commitment laws. Both sides tend to see the civil rights issues and conservatives additionally see a huge added burden to the tax rolls. It was during the Reagan Administration that many mental facilities were shut down and patients basically turned loose to fend for themselves. However, the same liberals who hated Reagan for shutting the hospitals down also complained bitterly that there were people locked up involuntarily without having committed a crime as well, so it was a Catch-22.

It is common after a high-profile crime like this for people to call for stricter control of the mentally ill. Unfortunately, it's probably not possible. First, because the mentally-ill can be hard to identify, second, because in the US, they must be clearly a threat to themselves or others (as seen by a court, not just a cop on a beat or a relative), and third, because the services to do such things are not in place due to budget and a variety of other issues.

 

[Wo Fat]

First off, I just want to thank Ballen and his fellow officers for the things they have to wade in every day that the rest of us do not want to have to deal with :sensei rei:. I know it's not my country so what he does does not directly affect me but I can still feel grateful that there are those that do that job wherever they are in the world.

My question is why it is that these 'crazy' people are not being taken care of by a more appropriate means of management than the police force? A close family member is a manic depressive paranoid schizophrenic (collect the set and win a free sticker album ) and I have had to deal with some very unpleasant circumstances because of that condition. But none of those circumstances necessitated calling the police - that is what the specialist doctors and nurses of the National Health Service are for. Is there no similar provision for care and treatment in the USA?

Former president Ronald Reagan signed law with respect to the treatment of mental illness. Essentially, the policy at the time did away with much of the involuntary institutionalizing of mentally ill people. While this satisfied special interest groups, it did little of nothing to address the mentally ill or their needs. The legacy of that policy has survived to this day. It's not that Reagan was hateful or fearful of the mentally ill. He and the coalition of politicians and special interests were simply indifferent.

What remains is essentially a "system" where people either (a) cough up $85 an hour for a therapist as well as a monthly pharmaceutical bills, or (b) we expect law enforcement to "help" -- often with either weapons drawn or somebody in handcuffs.

 

[Tgace]

In my state we have some county and state mental health agencies that do track, meet with and sometimes call us to assist in committing the mentally ill. To be fair to them I don't really know how good of a job they do. But I see many people who are not under their supervision....I don't really know what it takes to be placed in their system either.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

 

[Sukerkin]

As someone who has dealt with the consequences and behaviours of someone who is severely mentally ill since I was eleven years old, I am appalled to hear what Bill outlined above. With no pun intended at all that is a crazy way to deal with the problem. It takes time to get help when things go wrong over here but, you will get help once the appropriate steps have been taken to show that you are not getting someone put away in a mental institution who does not belong in one.

Well it's your country and you vote for the laws you want I suppose.

Just never let me hear anyone on these pages bitching about something that a mentally ill person did to someone else (or themselves) when the system in place is set up to 'protect' an individuals rights until they actually harm someone else or themselves :shakes head in disbelief:.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Well it's your country and you vote for the laws you want I suppose.

It's not always just that. In the cases outlined, the Supreme Court ruled that involuntary confinement under other than the circumstances listed was unconstitutional. So one could vote for any sort of laws that contravened that; they'd be struck down.

But consider this. Let's say you come here to visit. You go to a local bar with some friends and things get out of hand, and you eventually come into contact with the local police. They arrest you but furthermore, they believe there is something about your behavior that leads them to believe you might just be a dangerous lunatic as well.

So they put you on a 72-hour psych hold and you get locked up until evaluated by psychiatrists. Now, as we all know, you're absolutely sane. But let's just say that the shrinks don't care for your test results and due to that, they convince a judge to keep you locked up somewhat longer. You're outraged, of course, but what can you do?

Eventually, they decide they've fixed you enough to let you out on your own, but they give you prescriptions for various drugs and make appointments for you with therapists who will supposedly make you better.

Since you know that you're not insane, but clearly someone is doing something very very wrong, do you take the drugs, go to the counselling, or do you say to hell with that and get out of that town as fast as you can?

Right you are, time to beat feet for the border.

Now consider that crazy people do not believe they are crazy.

And that's how they react. As an innocent man would.

So they don't take the drugs, and they don't go to the appointments.

And unless they have demonstrated that they're dangerous to themselves or others, they're left to their own devices.

If we're going to give people the authority to lock people up for being nuts and compel them to take medication and see therapists, we might want to be certain that we don't get any false positives. Or is it OK to lock up a few sane men just so we get the truly crazy ones off the street?