"Bad" TKD" looks pretty good to me!

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I saw this video yesterday and was quite impressed by the some of the kicking (first 4 seconds for example, and from 21:20 - 22:20).

Yet the comments are overwhelmingly negative.

Am I way off by thinking this has some pretty darn good martial arts? Not everyone is as talented as the best guy, but still....I'd be happy to see that demo.

 

[skribs]

You really trying to make sense of youtube comments?

 

[skribs]

What they're doing is essentially a technical demo. It's not necessarily practical. It's more "look what I can do!" Which is great. I do it a lot myself. I have no doubt that my 540 kicks are impractical. However, I do them, because they're fun and I can show them off.

There are two ways this can become problematic. First, if the practitioners think this is directly applicable to a real fight, they're probably going to get punched or swept. But, if they correctly identify this as a demonstration of balance, flexibility, and control, then there isn't a problem. (It's also why I'm so harsh on people who claim the forms teach you how to fight).

The second is if the audience thinks this is how they would actually fight, and then criticizes them for it. If the audience doesn't realize what this is, and accept it as what it is, then the audience can be unduly mean towards the performance. Just like when you have kids doing a bo staff form for a school talent show, and 90% of the comments are "lol but it won't work in a real fight, they're just baton twirling."

What I will say is the biggest grievance for me is the form. They have the rhythm of dice. None of them are in time with each other. I'd rather see them do whatever their Basic Form #1 is, and do it together, than see the most intricate form in the world where they're all out of sync.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

The second is if the audience thinks this is how they would actually fight, and then criticizes them for it. If the audience doesn't realize what this is, and accept it as what it is, then the audience can be unduly mean towards the performance. Just like when you have kids doing a bo staff form for a school talent show, and 90% of the comments are "lol but it won't work in a real fight, they're just baton twirling."

Thanks for the comments.

As an aside, I grew up in a town that had a young world champion baton twirler...I would see this young girl on the news when she won and I was impressed!

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7220415811092008234

 

[Earl Weiss]

Based on the patterns this is definitely "Old School " Chang Hon with a strong Chung Do Kwan Flavor.

 

[Earl Weiss]

TKD people critical - who would think it. Old story , Judo Guy, Boxer and TKD Guy walking together and see 3 thugs attacking someone. They are about to help when first attacker throws a jab and intended victim grabs it does a beautiful hip throw and attacker is out cold from hitting the ground. Judo guy says "Nice hip throw". They are still about to jump in when second attacker throw lead hook and intended victim ducks, does a hook of his own and knocks out attacker. Boxer says "Nice Duck and hook". as last attacker starts to get off a shot intended victim knocks him out with spinning heel kick and TKD person says " foot position wrong, stance wrong...".

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Hi Earl, Yes, I think you posted that one before....and it's one thing I don't like about TKID schools. They are often close minded.

Example: since you are ITF as I recall..... I am an older slower guy and I was sparring a younger female master in the WT-style school. I wasn't about to use power to "win" and be a jerk. But nevertheless, she said dismissively, "I can see everything you are doing. You are telegraphing."

So I went into my memory banks to think of something unusual, and landed a twist kick to the body. Her comment was "that's not a kick". Nevertheless, the other youth black belts asked what it was and I explained it was a twist kick, more common in ITF TKD than WT TKD.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What they're doing is essentially a technical demo. It's not necessarily practical. It's more "look what I can do!" Which is great. I do it a lot myself. I have no doubt that my 540 kicks are impractical. However, I do them, because they're fun and I can show them off.

There are two ways this can become problematic. First, if the practitioners think this is directly applicable to a real fight, they're probably going to get punched or swept. But, if they correctly identify this as a demonstration of balance, flexibility, and control, then there isn't a problem. (It's also why I'm so harsh on people who claim the forms teach you how to fight).

The second is if the audience thinks this is how they would actually fight, and then criticizes them for it. If the audience doesn't realize what this is, and accept it as what it is, then the audience can be unduly mean towards the performance. Just like when you have kids doing a bo staff form for a school talent show, and 90% of the comments are "lol but it won't work in a real fight, they're just baton twirling."

What I will say is the biggest grievance for me is the form. They have the rhythm of dice. None of them are in time with each other. I'd rather see them do whatever their Basic Form #1 is, and do it together, than see the most intricate form in the world where they're all out of sync.

Before I looked at the comments on YouTube, this was what I expected the criticisms to be. It's an excellent demonstration of body control and technique, but not at all any kind of practical application.

However I only spotted one comment which was clearly along those lines. A few were critical without specifying any particular flaws. The rest seemed to be along the lines of "that's not the correct way to do the poomsae." So maybe Earl's comment above sums it up the best.

 

[skribs]

Before I looked at the comments on YouTube, this was what I expected the criticisms to be. It's an excellent demonstration of body control and technique, but not at all any kind of practical application.

However I only spotted one comment which was clearly along those lines. A few were critical without specifying any particular flaws. The rest seemed to be along the lines of "that's not the correct way to do the poomsae." So maybe Earl's comment above sums it up the best.

Hmm...maybe I missed a category!

I think lots of people get stuck on minutae. Most of them are beginners, or only have experience in a specific system.

 

[O'Malley]

TKD people critical - who would think it. Old story , Judo Guy, Boxer and TKD Guy walking together and see 3 thugs attacking someone. They are about to help when first attacker throws a jab and intended victim grabs it does a beautiful hip throw and attacker is out cold from hitting the ground. Judo guy says "Nice hip throw". They are still about to jump in when second attacker throw lead hook and intended victim ducks, does a hook of his own and knocks out attacker. Boxer says "Nice Duck and hook". as last attacker starts to get off a shot intended victim knocks him out with spinning heel kick and TKD person says " foot position wrong, stance wrong...".

Then an untrained couch potato who saw the whole scene shouts: "huh, that wouldn't work in a real fight!"

 

[wab25]

I think lots of people get stuck on minutae. Most of them are beginners, or only have experience in a specific system.

I can not agree with you more.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Before I looked at the comments on YouTube, this was what I expected the criticisms to be. It's an excellent demonstration of body control and technique, but not at all any kind of practical application.

".. but not at all any kind of practical application"
This is where I mostly see things because demos have a tendency to warp things and as a result a lot of martial arts knowledge is lost, or maybe misguided.

For example, the very first kick at the beginning is a practical technique but it doesn't work as shown in the video. Here are the realities of what I'm seeing.

1. No one is going to punch at that distance
2. If they do punch at that distance then it's better to do nothing since that punch will never reach.

The practical use of that kick is to use it against a low mid-guard or long guard. You would use that technique against the guy on the right and not the one on the left.

Here's another situation where you can see that lower guard. The kick attacks the arm and at the same time turns the person's torso.

The problem with demos like that is that they often show more opening than actually exists.

My statements only are representative of practical application of martial arts techniques. If the goal is to show control, skill, flexibility, and talent then everything in that video is acceptable. You run a school and you want to always have a good flow of incoming students. The people who like traditional martial arts likes this type of stuff, especially back then when the video was created.

No one really wants to experience the pain of fighting but everyone wants to looks good doing martial arts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You really trying to make sense of youtube comments?

It's probably best not to take anything serious unless it's a question from someone who wants to know more about what's being done in the video.

I think lots of people get stuck on minutae. Most of them are beginners, or only have experience in a specific system.

A lot of times it's the smallest things in martial arts that has the biggest impact. You can make a small error in the application of a technique and it will destroy it's effectiveness completely.

The distance at which attacks occur in demos are often out of range of the target by feet and not inches.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The distance at which attacks occur in demos are often out of range of the target by feet and not inches.

It's even worse when things are done this way in regular training and not just for a flashy demo.

 

[Buka]

In my opinion it's "demo kicking" not fight kicking. It's nice to watch, though. Some of it, anyway.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it's one thing I don't like about TKID schools. They are often close minded.

This remind me one day that I trained in the park. I did side kick, back hand punch combo. A TKD guy passed by (he told me he trained TKD) and said that I didn't pull my kicking leg back completely. I tried to explain to him that I use kick to set up punch, and I need to land my kicking leg forward in order to cover the distance. He didn't agree with my approach. We argued for about 20 minutes, he then left.

In this clip, you can see that he has to land his kicking leg straight down (closer to his opponent) in order to land his back hand punch. He pulls his 2nd side kick back because there is no punch after that.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I did side kick, back hand punch combo.

Digressing a bit, at 2 schools where I have been a student, they had a turning (roundhouse) kick & punch combination.

It always made more sense to me to use the opposite hand (relative to the kicking leg), as in the video.

However, both schools use the same hand and I can only conclude that that is best only if the roundhouse is 45 degrees at most.

I like the video - thanks for posting.

 

[Earl Weiss]

FWIW I posted replies to some of the you tube comments pointing out why I felt the comments were off the mark.

 

[wab25]

This remind me one day that I trained in the park. I did side kick, back hand punch combo. A TKD guy passed by (he told me he trained TKD) and said that I didn't pull my kicking leg back completely. I tried to explain to him that I use kick to set up punch, and I need to land my kicking leg forward in order to cover the distance. He didn't agree with my approach. We argued for about 20 minutes, he then left.

The funny part is.... you were both correct.

We get trapped, because of the way we train. I learned to do a move this way, because it is the best way to do it. And, I am 100% correct that this is the best way to do this move.... in the context I was taught this technique. The trap we fall into, is not acknowledging the context. Given a different context, a different way to do the technique will be better. This is not because one way is superior to the other, its because one way is done in one context and the other is done in a different context.... and context matters.

You were correct in landing forward... because of the context you were looking at the move. He was correct in telling you to pull your kicking leg back completely... because of the context he was looking at.

Too often, we get stuck by assuming that everyone is looking at this stuff in the same context. When someone is doing a technique "the wrong way," maybe we should first try to understand the context in which they are training, before trying to "correct" the bad technique. You might learn something.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Am I way off by thinking this has some pretty darn good martial arts?

People in that video show excellent kicking skill. Until one day that you start to train those kicking skills, you won't be able to know how hard it can be. First you need to stretch your legs to the maximum. You then need to develop balance, endurance, speed, jumping ability, ...

I still remember that I used to hold on the door frame. Put one leg up, and used my hands to pull the door frame so my groin could touch that door frame. I also remember that one night I did split on my couch by laying down sideway with one leg on one side of the couch and the other leg on the other side of the couch. I fell to sleep and waked up next morning that my legs were so painful.

People have to pay big price to be able to kick like that.