Greg Alcorn
White Belt
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Wonder who JohnF is ? Care to discuss this post with me in person ?
Australian bujinkan
- Thread starter unitedwestand
- Start date
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Yeah, I was wondering who that was as well, Greg... Always classy to come along, make a single comment like that, and disappear. I have to say, the "Primary Art and Ranking" he put on his profile is a little odd, as well..."Shinobi 5th Dan". Hmm.
This surely is unnecessary, I don't have a view or knowledge of any of this but am following it with interest, however I don't appreciate these comments and I imagine I'm not alone in finding this language unsavoury. I haven't reported it because I suspect there won't be any more posts and if there are Chris will very ably put things correctly...without bad language!
Mr Alcorn,
It will be hard to talk in Person, since I am in Dublin Ireland. Where I study Shinobi and Ming Chuan under master John Fanning. Do you have a problem with that?
The Information was given to me by an Aussie , David Duckett , a Soldier I meet at a Robert Bussey seminar,years ago Plus a US Navy sailor who trained under Robert Bautgarten from the USS Blue Ridge. Both had matching information, when spoken to seperately.
So If you have two different sources with the same details, maybe there is credence to what they say.
Do you deny ever training under Darren Hastings?
Regards
JohnF
It will be hard to talk in Person, since I am in Dublin Ireland. Where I study Shinobi and Ming Chuan under master John Fanning. Do you have a problem with that?
The Information was given to me by an Aussie , David Duckett , a Soldier I meet at a Robert Bussey seminar,years ago Plus a US Navy sailor who trained under Robert Bautgarten from the USS Blue Ridge. Both had matching information, when spoken to seperately.
So If you have two different sources with the same details, maybe there is credence to what they say.
Do you deny ever training under Darren Hastings?
Regards
JohnF
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
It would depend on where they got their information, John. If they both repeated a story told to them by the same person, then that would only count as one instance repeated twice.
And, in terms of your system, if you enjoy it, hey, great, but, uh, the number of red flags I find would drive a bull mad.
http://www.mingchuan.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12&Itemid=15
I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry going through that page....
Of course, it then gets funnier....
http://www.mingchuan.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Itemid=16
And, in terms of your system, if you enjoy it, hey, great, but, uh, the number of red flags I find would drive a bull mad.
http://www.mingchuan.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12&Itemid=15
I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry going through that page....
Of course, it then gets funnier....
http://www.mingchuan.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Itemid=16
He will mean discussing by either private message on here or by email. Then, if the discussion between you gets heated it doesn't derail the thread.
Dean Whittle
Yellow Belt
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Attacking the system John studies as valid or invalid does not counter the truth or otherwise of his story, it's a straw man. Highlighting that it comes to him 2nd hand is a better option, or perhaps just telling us your version of events.
With respect
With respect
Dean Whittle
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John,
A straw man is an argumentative technique, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man for more details.
It's actually not the tactic I was thinking of, rather it was ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem), where by questioning the validity of the system you study it negates the truthfullness of the story you've relayed, when in fact the two things are unrelated.
I'm not supporting your story, although I have heard it before from different sources to your own, but the thread should stay on track (the history of the Bujinkan in Australia) rather than get sidelined by discussions about your training.
With respect
A straw man is an argumentative technique, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man for more details.
It's actually not the tactic I was thinking of, rather it was ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem), where by questioning the validity of the system you study it negates the truthfullness of the story you've relayed, when in fact the two things are unrelated.
I'm not supporting your story, although I have heard it before from different sources to your own, but the thread should stay on track (the history of the Bujinkan in Australia) rather than get sidelined by discussions about your training.
With respect
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Agreed, but there are also a number of examples that would put John's story under greater scrutiny, as it were. One is the system he is training in, as it shows a lack of discernment in terms of credibility (the idea of "Shinobi" being the older, Chinese form of Ninjutsu, for instance... when "Shinobi" is a Japanese word and Japanese pronunciation.... should be enough to set off warning bells in anyone who considers it being anything close to a genuine martial art, let alone having the heritage it claims), as well as the rather large number of personal accusatory and implied phrasings in the original post:
"... some whinging Pom from Tasmania..."
"... introduced by a mate of his who had a drinking problem...."
"... a man with a questionable driving record..."
There's just too much animosity below the surface to necessarily take it all on face value. I'm not saying that there isn't some form of accuracy to it, but it does seem to be rather skewed the way it's presented here. Additionally, I don't recall Greg saying that he spent his entire time under Andrew Beattie, so saying that he started under Darren Hastings doesn't mean that Greg doesn't consider himself to have primarily been a student of Andrews.
I'd be more interested in knowing where this story came to you from, John, and whether it's actually two different sources, or one with a chip on their shoulder spreading stories to attack others. At this point, the delivery of the claims lends them little credibility without further corroboration.
"... some whinging Pom from Tasmania..."
"... introduced by a mate of his who had a drinking problem...."
"... a man with a questionable driving record..."
There's just too much animosity below the surface to necessarily take it all on face value. I'm not saying that there isn't some form of accuracy to it, but it does seem to be rather skewed the way it's presented here. Additionally, I don't recall Greg saying that he spent his entire time under Andrew Beattie, so saying that he started under Darren Hastings doesn't mean that Greg doesn't consider himself to have primarily been a student of Andrews.
I'd be more interested in knowing where this story came to you from, John, and whether it's actually two different sources, or one with a chip on their shoulder spreading stories to attack others. At this point, the delivery of the claims lends them little credibility without further corroboration.
oaktree
Master of Arts
There is no such word shinobi in Chinese. If you reading the hanzi or Japanese kanji For ninja in Chinese its ren zhe but most likely Tan zi would be the word for a scout agent.It strange that a zhongguo ren would use a nihonjin Word from 1917 but I suppose the history is that during The first Sino Japanese war a ninja came to China fell in Love with a Chinese girl they had a son thus spawnsChinese ninjutsu its Chinese cause the leader was from China It's ninjutsu cause it came from japan. 
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Right. This'll be the end of this part of the conversation. JohnF, if you wish to continue to discuss this, I suggest a PM to myself or Greg, as this isn't something that is needed to continue here for a number of reasons. To that end, I will try to address your comments so you don't think that anything is being swept under the rug, or ignored, but I will also explain why this is not continuing in a public forum.
That's the aim here.
Firstly, you may notice that I've edited the quotes here. And what I've done is I've removed the instructors name in question (and have requested that the rest of the posts that mention him are similarly altered) on the request of the person themselves. Basically, he's feeling more than a little harassed due to a sudden influx of emails about things that happened 25 years ago that he barely remembers himself. Suggesting that people contact an individual who is currently active and promoting themselves is one thing, suggesting that contact be made with someone trying to quietly live their lives is another. That's why the post of yours was edited to remove their contact details in the first place. Not a good thing to put out there without someones permission, and all that.
I'll come back to your system, though, as that has proved relatively relevant....
Right, so to clear things up.
Yes, Greg, Paul etc were students of this instructor first, however that instructor was under the authority of Andrew MacDonald, which means that Greg was perfectly fine in saying that he is/was a student of Andrew MacDonalds. You kinda spell that out in this post, so I'm not sure where you think the lie is. As far as the rest, the way the person in question remembers it, there was a different belief in the way training should be, and that was the cause of certain people leaving the dojo.
Essentially what we have here is a couple of guys (Paul, Greg etc) starting under a person who was running a dojo under the authority of Andrew MacDonald, hence being Andrew MacDonald students. Other people came in, some people got rank to greater or lesser degrees, and training beliefs led the individuals to go in different directions. Greg (and Paul) stayed under Andrew, and therefore consider themselves to be students of Andrew. The instructor himself eventually stopped teaching for Andrew for reasons that are theirs. Of course, the way you told it was a little more, uh, colourful, but that's about it. And the degree of negativity may not help your argument at all (it comes across as bitter, racist, and angry, really, and as the instructor in question has no idea who you are, or how you're affected by this, that's a little confusing).
One thing he did say, though, was that one of the things that pushed him out of the art was being introduced to this bizarre mash-up supposed system called "Shinobi", something about "Irish Chinese ninja arts?", which was just so bad that it took his heart out of what he was doing.
There's more to this, but it's not relevant to this. If you need more information, feel free to PM myself, and I'll happily tell you, though. But discussion of this person is not going to lead anywhere good for them, or anyone involved, and opening up this site to harassment suits isn't something that we should be aiming for. Deal?
That's the aim here.
Firstly, you may notice that I've edited the quotes here. And what I've done is I've removed the instructors name in question (and have requested that the rest of the posts that mention him are similarly altered) on the request of the person themselves. Basically, he's feeling more than a little harassed due to a sudden influx of emails about things that happened 25 years ago that he barely remembers himself. Suggesting that people contact an individual who is currently active and promoting themselves is one thing, suggesting that contact be made with someone trying to quietly live their lives is another. That's why the post of yours was edited to remove their contact details in the first place. Not a good thing to put out there without someones permission, and all that.
I'll come back to your system, though, as that has proved relatively relevant....
Right, so to clear things up.
Yes, Greg, Paul etc were students of this instructor first, however that instructor was under the authority of Andrew MacDonald, which means that Greg was perfectly fine in saying that he is/was a student of Andrew MacDonalds. You kinda spell that out in this post, so I'm not sure where you think the lie is. As far as the rest, the way the person in question remembers it, there was a different belief in the way training should be, and that was the cause of certain people leaving the dojo.
Essentially what we have here is a couple of guys (Paul, Greg etc) starting under a person who was running a dojo under the authority of Andrew MacDonald, hence being Andrew MacDonald students. Other people came in, some people got rank to greater or lesser degrees, and training beliefs led the individuals to go in different directions. Greg (and Paul) stayed under Andrew, and therefore consider themselves to be students of Andrew. The instructor himself eventually stopped teaching for Andrew for reasons that are theirs. Of course, the way you told it was a little more, uh, colourful, but that's about it. And the degree of negativity may not help your argument at all (it comes across as bitter, racist, and angry, really, and as the instructor in question has no idea who you are, or how you're affected by this, that's a little confusing).
One thing he did say, though, was that one of the things that pushed him out of the art was being introduced to this bizarre mash-up supposed system called "Shinobi", something about "Irish Chinese ninja arts?", which was just so bad that it took his heart out of what he was doing.
There's more to this, but it's not relevant to this. If you need more information, feel free to PM myself, and I'll happily tell you, though. But discussion of this person is not going to lead anywhere good for them, or anyone involved, and opening up this site to harassment suits isn't something that we should be aiming for. Deal?
Colin Power
White Belt
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Just found this thread so apologies if the interest has been lost.
I trained with Wayne L. Roy from 1983 till early 1987 ... some will say the Golden years. I won't add anything to the she said he said in the tread but would like to tell you about the fun things we got up to in those days and explain my perception of the training of those years.
As for names well we all called each other by last names as a sign of respect and discipline. My memory has faded with some of the names and most likely few will remember me as I tried to train and keep in the shadows so to speak. Well since training with Wayne Roy was more about exploring all aspects of ourself ... you had to come out of the shadows and grow as a human.
Glad to hear that Leonie was graded and even happier to hear she changed her name to Leonie Furner ... I knew her previous name and even her Maiden name( she would probably track me down and kill me if I revealed it). Very happy to also hear that Maureen Jensen pursued her Ninjutsu dream ... I have a soft spot for her, probably from the beatings she gave me.
So what did we get up to in those days that isn't often done in modern dojos...
We learnt to abseil and run down cliffs... haven't seen that in modern dojo brochures. We had a dedicated pool at one dojo to do water training in our gees... very hard to get out of a pool quickly and silently when you are fully clothed.
The first dojo was out the back of Roy senior's home... an open paddock surrounded by barbed wire fences which we dive rolled over in evasion training ... hopefully no cow pats on the other side. If it was wet cold and raining ... no excuse you were expected to attend training. Todays students... would they tolerate this approach?
Admission to training was after 2 interviews... 1st night come and watch the whole night without any explanations then an interview before you were asked to come back for a 2nd night of watching. If you weren't what Mr. Roy was looking for in a student you weren't asked back.This procedure loosened up over time from memory. It did sort out the people brought in by the hype of being a Ninja though.
Wayne Roy was always looking to integrate training into life so the senior student would go out to restaurants and nightclubs as a group to remember what you were learning were tools for life. We had fun and we were like a big family... sometimes we disagreed.
We explored the esoteric side of things with the help of a spiritual leader (for a better word) that Wayne Roy introduced to his senior students. Wayne was always looking to push the boundaries.
For me these were great years and I have moved on to find other great people to share the road with...
Stories...why did it go this way not that way...don't really care. Why did it splinter and fracture... who is to blame? Growth is to blame... when you create officers you also bring out emotions... some flare briefly some runaway like a bushfire.
The grading system as I understood it in the early days was... all dressed in black (funny that) junior student, senior student, instructor no time line on when you would achieve any grading. You could be a senior student for life because instructors were those that were going to be sent out to instruct on full time basis (your job).
All in all it was Fun... it was crazy... it forced you to grow as a person.
With respect,
Colin Power (once a senior student of Wayne L. Roy)
I trained with Wayne L. Roy from 1983 till early 1987 ... some will say the Golden years. I won't add anything to the she said he said in the tread but would like to tell you about the fun things we got up to in those days and explain my perception of the training of those years.
As for names well we all called each other by last names as a sign of respect and discipline. My memory has faded with some of the names and most likely few will remember me as I tried to train and keep in the shadows so to speak. Well since training with Wayne Roy was more about exploring all aspects of ourself ... you had to come out of the shadows and grow as a human.
Glad to hear that Leonie was graded and even happier to hear she changed her name to Leonie Furner ... I knew her previous name and even her Maiden name( she would probably track me down and kill me if I revealed it). Very happy to also hear that Maureen Jensen pursued her Ninjutsu dream ... I have a soft spot for her, probably from the beatings she gave me.
So what did we get up to in those days that isn't often done in modern dojos...
We learnt to abseil and run down cliffs... haven't seen that in modern dojo brochures. We had a dedicated pool at one dojo to do water training in our gees... very hard to get out of a pool quickly and silently when you are fully clothed.
The first dojo was out the back of Roy senior's home... an open paddock surrounded by barbed wire fences which we dive rolled over in evasion training ... hopefully no cow pats on the other side. If it was wet cold and raining ... no excuse you were expected to attend training. Todays students... would they tolerate this approach?
Admission to training was after 2 interviews... 1st night come and watch the whole night without any explanations then an interview before you were asked to come back for a 2nd night of watching. If you weren't what Mr. Roy was looking for in a student you weren't asked back.This procedure loosened up over time from memory. It did sort out the people brought in by the hype of being a Ninja though.
Wayne Roy was always looking to integrate training into life so the senior student would go out to restaurants and nightclubs as a group to remember what you were learning were tools for life. We had fun and we were like a big family... sometimes we disagreed.
We explored the esoteric side of things with the help of a spiritual leader (for a better word) that Wayne Roy introduced to his senior students. Wayne was always looking to push the boundaries.
For me these were great years and I have moved on to find other great people to share the road with...
Stories...why did it go this way not that way...don't really care. Why did it splinter and fracture... who is to blame? Growth is to blame... when you create officers you also bring out emotions... some flare briefly some runaway like a bushfire.
The grading system as I understood it in the early days was... all dressed in black (funny that) junior student, senior student, instructor no time line on when you would achieve any grading. You could be a senior student for life because instructors were those that were going to be sent out to instruct on full time basis (your job).
All in all it was Fun... it was crazy... it forced you to grow as a person.
With respect,
Colin Power (once a senior student of Wayne L. Roy)
Dean Whittle
Yellow Belt
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Colin,
Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
Although I wasn't based in Brisbane, we did similar events in Sydney. It was definitely out of the ordinary and not something that could be repeated these days.
All the best.
With respect
Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
Although I wasn't based in Brisbane, we did similar events in Sydney. It was definitely out of the ordinary and not something that could be repeated these days.
All the best.
With respect
James Diamond Roberts
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Howdy. I started training at surrey hills, Elizabeth st Sydney way back in about 87. Out of memory Sensei Brett Reed? Reid? Was the head instructor I think. Dion Kalos was also one of the teachers and a young Michael Tattoli. Had the pleasure and honor of meeting Dr Hatsumi back then also. What a shame girls and work got in the way. Really enjoyed the time back then and could certainly use the discipline again in my life!!
James Diamond Roberts
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Excellent work Mr Power. It was a lot of fun and many great memories.
I'm afraid he only posted the once and hasn't been back since 2013, the thread itself is 8 years old. Welcome to MT though, hopefully you'll find more recent threads and posts interesting.
