Australian bujinkan

Chris Parker

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That teacher was Ueno Takashi, not Tanemura. You're getting very mixed up there. And as far as Ueno Sensei being Takamatsu's student, there is a fair bit of contention there. Hatsumi always used to describe him as such, but other sources all indicate that they were more colleagues who shared information than teacher and student (ie Takamatsu got as much from Ueno as Ueno got from Takamatsu).

You're also getting a little confused with Tanemura leaving the Bujinkan, by the way. Where you're coming from is Takamatsu apparently was sending letters to Tanemura as well as Hatsumi, and indicated to Tanemura that he should be the one to take over from Hatsumi as the 35th Head of Togakure Ryu. When Hatsumi became ill in the early 80's and didn't hand over the Sokeship, Tanemura did feel a bit put out. But that is not the reason he left (although it is possibly a reason he sought out so many other students of Takamatsu upon leaving).
 

shirobanryunotora

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furthermore to my data on tanemura-his bio on wikipedia(2010version) states that his sensei includes such as takamatsu toshitsugu,kimura masaji,akimoto koki,sato kinbei,kobayashi masao,tanemura sadatsune,(after takamatsu ret.both)masaaki hatsumi and fukumoto yoshio(who began training with takamatsu at same time as hatsumi-circa 1957 and travelled together on same train-refer same wikipedia ref bio on hatsumi) please keep in mind that the early days were rather convoluted espec.when masters got ill etc but think and hope my version is the correct one???
 

Chris Parker

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furthermore to my data on tanemura-his bio on wikipedia(2010version) states that his sensei includes such as takamatsu toshitsugu,kimura masaji,akimoto koki,sato kinbei,kobayashi masao,tanemura sadatsune,(after takamatsu ret.both)masaaki hatsumi and fukumoto yoshio(who began training with takamatsu at same time as hatsumi-circa 1957 and travelled together on same train-refer same wikipedia ref bio on hatsumi) please keep in mind that the early days were rather convoluted espec.when masters got ill etc but think and hope my version is the correct one???

Not quite, let's update you, shall we?

Tanemura Sensei claims Takamatsu Sensei as his most influential teacher, even though h only trained that one day with him, as he is the source of what he learnt under all the other teachers. His first teacher was his father (Tanemura Sadatsune), who was a practitioner of Ono-ha Itto Ryu. Akimoto Koki was Akimoto Sensei (Hatsumi Sensei's senior under Takamatsu, and the inherritor of Gikan Ryu until it reverted to Takamatsu when Akimoto Sensei died)'s son; Kimura Masaji was a close neighbour of Takamatsu's , leading to more training under Takamatsu than anyone else had; Sato Kinbei was a teacher of a range of arts, like Ueno he was more colleague than student of Takamatsu's; Kobayashi Sensei and Fukumoto Sensei were also students of Takamatsu's while Hatsumi was learning there. Fukumoto Sensei was awarded the "Ura Soke-ship" of Togakure Ryu, and it is from him that Tanemura Sensei claims his Togakure lineage.

Once more, Tanemura Sensei was not a personal student of Takamatsu in the sense of teacher guiding the physical techniques of the student. All of the other teachers on that list were sought out and learnt under after Tanemura left to form the Genbukan.
 

shirobanryunotora

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yep agree could have mixed names up but you seem a touch sensitive on these matters.was just trying to clarify these events and having been there when a lot of these were happening just wanted others to know there are alternate views just as valid-and by that i mean many strong personalities were exercising their talents to convince others to "join" their side so to speak though for bujinkan members its important to remember that in the end takamatsu-"the last living ninja" chose hatsumi to be the next soke not tanemura or takashi etc-hope this helps-til the next rr
 

shirobanryunotora

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do not have data to challenge whether tanemura was a real student of takamatsu's though wikipedia bio seems to say so-not sure how reliable wiki is etc-tanemuras comments at the time indicate what i said earlier-i am just the messenger so to speak- tanemura was very upset or acted that way and his heated comments included such as i have indicated-truth or not is debateable i guess-was just pointing out another side to the story that many are not aware of
 

Chris Parker

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No, I'm not being sensitive on this, it's just that your initial post in this thread was so completely out of whack with reality that it needed to be corrected. It should also be remembered, though, that Takamatsu chose Hatsumi to be the next Soke of the lines he gave Hatsumi.... he gave other lines of the same arts to other people, remember. Hastumi is not the one and only recipient of Takamatsu's lines. I could refer you to a court case involving the Gikan Ryu Sokeship, if you'd like, or we could look at a comparison between Koto Ryu in the Bujinkan and Genbukan... perhaps the Ishitani and Mizuta Den Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu's?

With regard to Tanemura's bio, that is lifted straight off the Genbukan sites, and I have explained the references. Once more, I'm not going into the reasons surrounding Tanemura's departure, as there have been many versions floating around over the last 20+ years, most only partially correct at best (such as the "I was meant to be the Soke!" one). I will also debunk an argument over Hatsumi's mothers funeral, as that was not a factor either.
 

shirobanryunotora

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That teacher was Ueno Takashi, not Tanemura. You're getting very mixed up there. And as far as Ueno Sensei being Takamatsu's student, there is a fair bit of contention there. Hatsumi always used to describe him as such, but other sources all indicate that they were more colleagues who shared information than teacher and student (ie Takamatsu got as much from Ueno as Ueno got from Takamatsu).

You're also getting a little confused with Tanemura leaving the Bujinkan, by the way. Where you're coming from is Takamatsu apparently was sending letters to Tanemura as well as Hatsumi, and indicated to Tanemura that he should be the one to take over from Hatsumi as the 35th Head of Togakure Ryu. When Hatsumi became ill in the early 80's and didn't hand over the Sokeship, Tanemura did feel a bit put out. But that is not the reason he left (although it is possibly a reason he sought out so many other students of Takamatsu upon leaving).
are you sure of your data saying tanemura only trained one day with takamatsu is correct??? why then would previous soke takamatsu send letters to tanemura offering sokeship etc to a one day student?? you admit in other text letter or letters between takamatsu and tanemura occurred pls xplain???not sure you have timeline correct or some fudging goin on somewhere???
 

Chris Parker

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Yes, I'm sure. It is verified by every single source on the subject, by the way. That includes Hatsumi stating that he only took his students to see Takamatsu once, Tanemura confirming the same, and so on. There are a number of people that I've only ever had written communication with, it's really not that difficult or unreasonable to think that Takamatsu communicated with Tanemura by writing letters, he was well known to send letters frequently.
 

shirobanryunotora

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No, I'm not being sensitive on this, it's just that your initial post in this thread was so completely out of whack with reality that it needed to be corrected. It should also be remembered, though, that Takamatsu chose Hatsumi to be the next Soke of the lines he gave Hatsumi.... he gave other lines of the same arts to other people, remember. Hastumi is not the one and only recipient of Takamatsu's lines. I could refer you to a court case involving the Gikan Ryu Sokeship, if you'd like, or we could look at a comparison between Koto Ryu in the Bujinkan and Genbukan... perhaps the Ishitani and Mizuta Den Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu's?

With regard to Tanemura's bio, that is lifted straight off the Genbukan sites, and I have explained the references. Once more, I'm not going into the reasons surrounding Tanemura's departure, as there have been many versions floating around over the last 20+ years, most only partially correct at best (such as the "I was meant to be the Soke!" one). I will also debunk an argument over Hatsumi's mothers funeral, as that was not a factor either.
interesting comments mr parker-my question to you is direct-where you there at the time? if you were not, then your data is rather secondhand and possibly biased in some way that you might not be aware of-note that you stated just as i did that important thing is to remember that takamatsu chose hatsumi-glad we agree on that-yep know bout funeral episode though you dont seem aware of tanemuras visits to mrs hatsumi as well?
 

shirobanryunotora

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Yes, I'm sure. It is verified by every single source on the subject, by the way. That includes Hatsumi stating that he only took his students to see Takamatsu once, Tanemura confirming the same, and so on. There are a number of people that I've only ever had written communication with, it's really not that difficult or unreasonable to think that Takamatsu communicated with Tanemura by writing letters, he was well known to send letters frequently.
yep agree letter communication would be norm though offering sokeship through the post seems stretching things does it not??
 

Chris Parker

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interesting comments mr parker-my question to you is direct-where you there at the time? if you were not, then your data is rather secondhand and possibly biased in some way that you might not be aware of-note that you stated just as i did that important thing is to remember that takamatsu chose hatsumi-glad we agree on that-yep know bout funeral episode though you dont seem aware of tanemuras visits to mrs hatsumi as well?

Oh dear lord... would you mind repeating that with my comment in context? I said that it was important to remember that Hatsumi was chosen as successor to the lines he inherrited not to everything Takamatsu had. I might also point out the "Ura Soke" side of things... in other words, Takamatsu awarded the Soke line of Togakure Ryu to two people!

As to where I was, no, I wasn't there. But I have had a number of conversations with people who were, and they are verified by the story that Tanemura puts forth as well, and it is not to do with who was awarded Sokeship of anything. And yes, I am aware of the visits to Mrs Hatsumi, Tanemura was rather close to the family. I am also aware of the visits to Takamatsu's widow as well, before we go there.

And I never said that Sokeship was being offered, as after Takamatsu had passed it to Hatsumi it was no longer his to confer. He did indicate that he believed that Tanemura Sensei would be the best successor to Hatsumi, when Hatsumi decided to pass it on.
 

shirobanryunotora

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Oh dear lord... would you mind repeating that with my comment in context? I said that it was important to remember that Hatsumi was chosen as successor to the lines he inherrited not to everything Takamatsu had. I might also point out the "Ura Soke" side of things... in other words, Takamatsu awarded the Soke line of Togakure Ryu to two people!

As to where I was, no, I wasn't there. But I have had a number of conversations with people who were, and they are verified by the story that Tanemura puts forth as well, and it is not to do with who was awarded Sokeship of anything. And yes, I am aware of the visits to Mrs Hatsumi, Tanemura was rather close to the family. I am also aware of the visits to Takamatsu's widow as well, before we go there.

And I never said that Sokeship was being offered, as after Takamatsu had passed it to Hatsumi it was no longer his to confer. He did indicate that he believed that Tanemura Sensei would be the best successor to Hatsumi, when Hatsumi decided to pass it on.
am aware that takamatsu offered lineages to at least two people-thats xactly what i have been trying to get across-there was much angst generated at the time between the different people hoping to get such lineages that much more than what can be nicely said here went on and some of your comments seem cut and dried when the reality of the situation at the time was definitely not so-this also applies to your previous summary of early days on oz-as said elsewhere i was there too and could tell much of my viewpoint of such episodes as between ed lomax and wayne roy for example that show a different take on oz early days-til the next rr
 

shirobanryunotora

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Thanks for that mate,

I did know a bit of background on Wayne Roy (and how he was one of the, if not the prominent guy at the time in Australia). He had Mike Hammond and maybe Mike Tattoli on board who do their own things now too I think?

I was sort of curious as to how the boys far away in WA (Jarvis boys, Mitchell, Hawke, Netes etc) got started as well as Horvath and Mac Aninch etc.

I will assume (which is dangerous to do of course) based on what you said, that there would be a strong probability that the above trained with or under Roy, or one of his seniors.

Cheers
hi n hope this helps-the wa boys; jarvis brothers,craig turbett and steve revnak etc got their bujinkan data from such as wayne roy,ed lomax and andrew macdonald in the early days-i spent quite some time with them in japan and oz after 1983-as for darren horvath he was a lil later ed lomax student-helped on the security team(as i did and several other security licensed students of ed's) for the first oz taikai in adelaide 1992 with soke hatsumi and shihan nagato-my home town btw-i remember them as enthusiastic and dedicated students of the bujinkan and have many photos and memories of training and other moments-each of their stories is precious and unique-til the next rr
 

shirobanryunotora

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Hi all,

I have to say, with the little bits I actually know of this art, and in particular throughout Australia, I am indeed impressed.

I have seen (footage of) the following:

Tim Bathurst
Greg Hinks
Andrew Netes
Andrew Jarvis
Duncan Mitchell
Duncan Stewart
John Cantor
Ed Lomax
Jamie Mac Aninch
Darren Horvath

All of the above are actually quite different, yet all excellent.

Can anybody tie a story together about when and where the Bujinkan originated in Australia and who actually trained with each other to begin with?

Coincidently, I think all of the above, are probably ranked the highest (although to me this means very little as there would surely be lower ranked guys superior to them and vice versa) in Bujinkan Australia with the exception of S. Jarvis, Steve Revnac, Lindsay Hawke, Craig Guest, Scott Shulze, Robin Doenicke and Gillian Booth????

I do not know the story behind Andrew MacDonald, Beattie, Greg Alcorn, Gary Bailey, Chris West etc.

An unbelievable line-up of folk within Australia?!!! You don't 'have to' go outside the country to train with elite craftspeople. Of course, each country would have a great line-up but I am most impressed at the shape of the Australian Bujinkan climate at the moment.

Respectfully yours,
hi-have contacted some of those named-tim bathurst,ed lomax and andrew macdonald re your query-they are all training partners of mine from the japan trip in 1990 i recall-wil update you on their reply later etc-as dean whittle has noted elsewhere the early days data he knows is somewhat different than say chris parker's-diff.first female dan-diff.grading data re ed lomax and wayne roy-diff.data re who first aussie in japan and etc-am trying to clarify these with those that were there with me at the time-wil update what info i get when i get it etc-til the nxt rr
 

shirobanryunotora

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Chris has done an admirable job in summarizing Wayne Roy's 20yr involvement in the Bujinkan as the first Australian to train in Japan and bring it back to Australia (although he wasn't the first Australian to train in Japan, there were two before him ... but that's another story). But I just wanted to clarify a few small things:

Mr Roy's first trip to Japan was in 1980.

Mr Roy returned to Japan on three occasions, roughly 1983, 1986/7 and 1990, it was at the end of this trip that he was graded to Rokudan.

he received his copy of the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki from Nagato-sensei at the end of his initial stay, not from Charles Daniel, however I understand he also received another version from Robert Bussey (who also got his from Nagato-sensei).

Gillian Booth was not the first Australian female black belt, that was Leonie Furner, followed by a number of others. Ms Booth was graded to Shodan by her Instructor Maureen Jensen who was Mr Roy's representative in Sydney at the time.

I don't believe Ed Lomax received any dan grades from Mr Roy, I believe he was graded by Andrew McDonald (IIRC) and left Mr Roy's Organisation thereafter.

Michael Tattoli was one of the first homegrown New South Welshmen to be graded to Shodan by Mr Roy, along with Dean Gum (retired) and Dion Kalos, this was around early '87.

I'm not too sure of Mike Hammond's history, I know he was part of our organisation at some stage but I don't know who he trained under in Sydney.


By way of background, I've been training in Mr Roy's organisation since 1986 and was privy to much of went on over the years. As Chris highlighted there's much more than what is indicated above however this is a brief overview of some of the barebone facts, based on my memory.

With respect
hi-have just spoken to ed lomax-from his point of view deans version closer to the truth-ed 1st dan graded by andrew macdonald-7th kyu by w.roy-ed left w.roy before got dan grade-a.mac graded at time 3rd dan by sh.nagato-1st female BB in oz was l.furner though seems to recall that highest graded oz female at time came to be hilary dyer a 3rd dan who also was in japan circa 1991-dispute btween ed & w roy was much more than what has already been said-in essence he feels that the early days in oz revolved around more than 1 personality-he cites many discussed here and others that all contributed to the expansion of bujinkan in oz-he recalls w roy starting to teach after only ten mths training-and yes mentioned w roy sword work was iado learnt off him-both andrew mac and tim bathurst have retnd my call though not chatted yet-wil tel their view later-til the next rr
 

Stealthy

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It would be worth using capitals for peoples names here as some may take it as implied rudeness.

Trust me, the capitals are worth it.
 
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shirobanryunotora

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It would be worth using capitals for peoples names here as some may take it as implied rudeness.

Trust me, the capitals are worth it.
Thanks for the tip-definitely no rudeness intended.Did not realise anyone would think such-had heard not to use full capital words but not the opposite concept.Apologies to all mentioned and will keep in mind for future.
 

Stealthy

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Thanks for the tip-definitely no rudeness intended.Did not realise anyone would think such-had heard not to use full capital words but not the opposite concept.Apologies to all mentioned and will keep in mind for future.

Haha yes that one is just as important, people can fly off the handle and start jumping up and down about being yelled at if you use all capitals.

OTT.
 

JohnF

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Its Nice to see how people like Greg Alcorn, Andrew Beattie and Paul Desilva have tried to rewrite History.

They say they trained under Andrew Macdonald, Little do people know, that they started their training under a Darren Hastings.

Andrew as a Sandan came to Sydney, Darren Help set up the Epping Dojo, at a Church Hall on the corner of Mardsen Rd & Mobbs Lane. Darren was graded to 6th Kyu, when andrew decided to return to Japan, leaving Darren to run the dojo as a 6th Kyu.

Darren was graded to shodan by some winging Pom from from Tasmania, who ripped Darren off hundreds of Dollars. I know this for a fact as I trained in Hobart with him, and he bousted about it, the same way as he back stabbed a yank called Robert Bautgarten.

Darren was graded to Nidan by Andrew on one of his whirl wind tours.

Greg , Andrew and Paul received Ky grades from Darren. Nidan & Shidoshi. So it was darren that introduced the 3 to Ninjutsu, Paul was brought to training by a mate of his who had a drinking problem.

Shortly after his Nidan was awarded a mad scot , by the name of Gordon Simmons arrived at the Dojo, a man with a questionable driving record. Simmons couldn't get the grades he wanted and now trains in Genbukan.

Paul, Greg and some other guy a motor mechanic started training with Gordon, while also training at Darrens Dojo. They lied to darren about certain things and openly underminded Darren's Training at the Epping Dojo.

Darren told them to leave the Dojo, Paul attempted to blackmail Darren by making false accusations that he was screwing female students. Darren still told them to leave.

Darren grew sick of the ******** within Bujinkan. The lack of support and the childish behaviour of Ninja wankers.

So History has been revealed to the truth.
 

Dean Whittle

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There's quite a good interview in this month's (June) edition of Blitz magazine with Robin Doenicke, in which he talks about his training in the early-to-mid 90s before heading over to Japan to live.

Admittedly for us old-timers, the early-to-mid 90s wasn't that long ago ... nevertheless it's a reasonable piece, which includes a photo of a very young Wayne Roy, circa 1984.

With respect
 
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