Augmented/Supported Blocks

[skribs]

There are several blocks in the forms at my school that can be called augmented or supported blocks. Some are similar to the palm block and backfist in Taegeuk 7, others are similar to the augmented block in Karate's Heian Nidan. You also see a similar principle in most spearhand techniques (i.e. Taegeuk 4). In a lot of these cases, the supporting hand is on the elbow. Let's look at three different techniques/combinations:

1. Taegeuk 7 (found in our school in our second Keumgang form), which has an inward palm block, with the support hand under the elbow in a tight fist, followed by a backfist with the same hand, and the support hand remains in the same position.
2. Taegeuk 4 (found in our school in several of our advanced forms), which has a spearhand strike with the support hand open under the elbow.
3. Heian Nidan, which features an outward block (I say "outward" as it implies direction, because some schools call it an outside block if it starts outside, but we call it an outside block if it ends outside), with the supporting hand touching the inside of the elbow joint.

For the purposes of this question, I am going to ignore variants of movement or application, and focus on the concept of this as an augmented block, and focus on the positioning of the hands as they exist in the kata. In looking at #3 in particular (the augmented outside block), I've seen plenty of ways the movement can be turned from an augmented block into a 2-handed block, or how the motion can have grappling or striking applications. I understand those applications and variations exist, and I am purposefully ignoring them so I can get a more detailed understanding of this particular application.

My specific question is this: as the position of the off-hand as a support against or underneath the elbow appears in different techniques in several different forms, as a support for both blocking and striking techniques (outward block, palm block; backfist, spearhand), it seems that the off-hand position was created with a purpose in mind. What is the purpose behind using your support hand in this way?

ETA: This has been a real hard subject to google because "supported block" brings up programming questions about which blocks are supported in version X of software Y, and "augmented block" brings up a different programming subject.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Since I am not familiar with your system I will provide a general type idea I use for another system and you may also find application to your other query vis a vis "Double Knifehand Block" In the early stages the "Off Hand" is often brought to the hip. Later it may be placed elsewhere. So, the question is why elsewhere? Putting on the hip was pretty good up until now? Factors may include one or more of the following: 1. This is a really good beginning position for the move that follows. 2. It is a very close range technique and having the off hand forward provides for a more efficient placement for defense / protection or counter attack. 3. It lends itself really well for some alternate application. 4. We need to vary our training in order to not get stuck in a certain muscle memory rut of always doing something only one way. (Hope that makes sense.)

 

[TrueJim]

Sadface. I was hoping to see more activity on this thread, because I have the same question. What's the idea behind "supported" blocks and strikes (rather than "augmented" blocks and strikes) -- i.e., the blocking or strike arm is resting on a supporting arm. For the supported spearhand like in T4, I believe we tend to think of the supporting knifehand as having just completed a downward palm pressing block, so the spearhand is merely riding on top of the block. But for T7 the "supporting" arm is held in a fist, and there's nothing in the motion that looks like a block -- so in T7, what is that supporting arm doing?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is the purpose behind using your support hand in this way?

One ay I sparred with a TKD guy, he liked to throw side kick at my chest. Every time he kicked at me, I used my "support hand" to block on top of his ankle. Since my "support hand" was a bit in front of my leading arm elbow joint, my elbow joint just dropped down on his ankle without thinking. I kept doing that until he could not kick me any more. I then ...

From that personal experience, I find out to have "support hand" a bit in front of my leading arm elbow joint can give me that advantage.

In CMA, there is an exercise called "hand washing". You keep switching your leading hand and back support hand. The closer that your hands are next to each other, the faster that you can wash your hand.

 

[skribs]

Note that as I'm writing this, I'm thinking and processing things. If anything in this reply seems to contradict something earlier in the reply, it's because I'm thinking through it.

Since I am not familiar with your system I will provide a general type idea I use for another system and you may also find application to your other query vis a vis "Double Knifehand Block" In the early stages the "Off Hand" is often brought to the hip. Later it may be placed elsewhere. So, the question is why elsewhere? Putting on the hip was pretty good up until now? Factors may include one or more of the following: 1. This is a really good beginning position for the move that follows. 2. It is a very close range technique and having the off hand forward provides for a more efficient placement for defense / protection or counter attack. 3. It lends itself really well for some alternate application. 4. We need to vary our training in order to not get stuck in a certain muscle memory rut of always doing something only one way. (Hope that makes sense.)

1. I can see that, but it doesn't really show up in any of the forms I know. Almost every form where a supported technique is used, the next motion is with the main hand instead of the support hand.
2. This would make sense for one of the 4 techniques (the backfist). If you're that close in that you are holding your arm against their chest, then the other hand is too close to them to effectively block a strike.
3. I've seen plenty of Bunkai that support this, but I'm trying to find the application to a block or strike.
4. Same thing as #3 - I'm not against variation of training and finding new applications, but at this point in time I want to understand the concept in this application.

Sadface. I was hoping to see more activity on this thread, because I have the same question. What's the idea behind "supported" blocks and strikes (rather than "augmented" blocks and strikes) -- i.e., the blocking or strike arm is resting on a supporting arm. For the supported spearhand like in T4, I believe we tend to think of the supporting knifehand as having just completed a downward palm pressing block, so the spearhand is merely riding on top of the block. But for T7 the "supporting" arm is held in a fist, and there's nothing in the motion that looks like a block -- so in T7, what is that supporting arm doing?

Me too, although I'm glad that what has been discussed here is directly related to the topic (instead of the meta-ramblings of the other thread I started).

One ay I sparred with a TKD guy, he liked to throw side kick at my chest. Every time he kicked at me, I used my "support hand" to block on top of his ankle. Since my "support hand" was a bit in front of my leading arm elbow joint, my elbow joint just dropped down on his ankle without thinking. I kept doing that until he could not kick me any more. I then ...

From that personal experience, I find out to have "support hand" a bit in front of my leading arm elbow joint can give me that advantage.

In CMA, there is an exercise called "hand washing". You keep switching your leading hand and back support hand. The closer that your hands are next to each other, the faster that you can wash your hand.

You know, we do something similar for a side-kick (except with a backfist like in T7). Just playing around with it a little bit right now, I do feel like the backfist does benefit by being able to push against your other hand. The palm block before it in T7 sets you into that position. And I do see the point of a spearhand flowing over a palm block. I'm pretty sure every spearhand in the forms we do at my school follows a palm block.

That still leaves us with the double outside block. Placing your hand on the side of your elbow doesn't seem to help much in terms of stabilizing the forearm. If the forearm is overpowered and pushed in, it just rolls over onto the other arm. If anything, the motion seems slower and weaker, because I'm more worried about not punching my elbow than I am about the motion itself.

I guess if I look at it as I did with the double knife-hand, I can compare the double outside with the single outside. This means that what I'm really comparing is having a hand in front of you in a bar position, vs. having a hand tight at your side. Even though this position doesn't make much sense, it's more comfortable than doing an outside block with your other hand up in front of you in a guard position (ironically, more comfortable on the supporting hand, not the main hand), and it gives you a quicker chamber on anything across your body, which does KIND OF show up when we block one side and then the other.

Hmmm....I still want to give it more thought though.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Placing your hand on the side of your elbow doesn't seem to help much in terms of stabilizing the forearm.

When you put your left hand on the left side of your right elbow, you have created a triangle space in front of you. If you keep moving your left hand forward and reach to your right hand, you have created a wedge. By using this wedge (triangle space), you can hide your head behind it very well. The farther that you extend your arms, The more safe space that you can create between your hands and your head.

 

[skribs]

When you put your left hand on the left side of your right elbow, you have created a triangle space in front of you. If you keep moving your left hand forward and reach to your right hand, you have created a wedge. By using this wedge (triangle space), you can hide your head behind it very well. The farther that you extend your arms, The more safe space that you can create between your hands and your head.

I think we may be talking about different blocks. The block I'm referring to is one of the last techniques in Heian Nidan. You can see it best at 0:36 and 1:30.

It took a bit of searching to find a video that showed it fairly well, as all the other ones you see the technique from the back or from the right.

I find it hard to see this particular position as a triangle to hide the head behind. If it was a high block instead of an outward block, with the elbow just above the shoulder instead of below the shoulder, I could see it.

---

In thinking about this further, I realized that the hand motion of the support hand is very similar to the hand position of the Large Hinge Block in Keumgang Hyung. I was planning on doing another thread regarding the blocks in Keumgang Hung. It's described as a chamber position in some articles I've found, but I've seen it used effectively as a block against a backfist in Wing Chun exercises. It's also related (and I didn't see it until now) to the Small Hinge Block that shows up in our Palgwe 4 (and I believe Taegeuk 5) and also in Taebaek.

Going back to the other thread I was planning, I was planning to do the blocks in there because there's a lot of double blocks that are different from the other ones we've discussed so far, in that instead of a main hand and support hand, you have two separate blocks. For example, a scissors block, or the crane block in Keumgang, or the double-low block (to each side) or double outside block. But coming back to the double outside block, I now see it as an outside block with the "main" hand, and a large hinge block with the "support" hand.

This doesn't necessarily answer the question for me about it's purpose, but it allows me to look at the question from a different angle.

 

[skribs]

@Kung Fu Wang so I misread your post.

That makes sense, but is not an application apparent in the Taekwondo or Karate forms I've seen it used in.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can see it best at 0:36 and 1:30..

This may not have anything to do with this topic. Just a comment from watching that clip.

During the

1. beginner level training, you will see all arms movement and you don't see much body movement. You keep your body static and just move your arm to block.
2. advance level training, you will see all body movement and you don't see much arms movement. You keep your arm static and just move your body to block.

IMO, 2 > 1. All horizontal blocks should involve with body rotation. Try to block a powerful roundhouse kick without body rotation and also with body rotation. You will feel a big difference there.

 

[skribs]

This may not have anything to do with this topic. Just a comment from watching that clip.

During the

1. beginner level training, you will see all arms movement and you don't see much body movement. You keep your body static and just move your arm to block.
2. advance level training, you will see all body movement and you don't see much arms movement. You keep your arm static and just move your body to block.

IMO, 2 > 1. All horizontal blocks should involve with body rotation. Try to block a powerful roundhouse kick without body rotation and also with body rotation. You will feel a big difference there.

I disagree slightly. As you advance in Taekwondo you add the body movement, but do not remove the arm movements.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I disagree slightly. As you advance in Taekwondo you add the body movement, but do not remove the arm movements.

Not saying to remove the arm movement. But your body movement is more important than your arm movement at that moment.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Note that as I'm writing this, I'm thinking and processing things. If anything in this reply seems to contradict something earlier in the reply, it's because I'm thinking through it.

1. I can see that, but it doesn't really show up in any of the forms I know. Almost every form where a supported technique is used, the next motion is with the main hand instead of the support hand.
2. .

Sorry, can't help you. I was speaking from a Chang Hon perspective. I cannot address wht does or doesn't show up in the system you practice.. I just figured they were good places to look.

 

[WaterGal]

The Kukkiwon textbook says that the supporting hand in that move in Taegeuk 7 is grabbing the opponent and holding them close while you strike them. That's why it's a closed fist. Though, in the illustrated examples of forms applications they have, the guy isn't actually grabbing the opponent with the supporting hand! I think the block complicates matters, because if you're close enough to grab your opponent's shirt and backfist them in the face.... what are you blocking with the chest-level palm block? Them trying to grab your shirt? They're too close to kick or punch you.

 

[TrueJim]

... if you're close enough to grab your opponent's shirt and backfist them in the face.... what are you blocking with the chest-level palm block?

Also, you would think that at least some schools would teach a "grabbing" motion with the supporting hand as part of the chamber for the block (like the way some schools teach a "grabbing motion" for knifehand_block+punch combinations), but I've never seen anybody do it that way. AND, in Sports Poomsae, they make a point of insisting that the palm-block be fairly far forward (i.e., with the elbow only a bit bent at the moment of blocking), so....I guess...you'd be grabbing the opponent's wrist with your supporting fist, while he's punching you with his other hand? I find it difficult to make sense of this movement.

 

[WaterGal]

Yeah, grabbing the wrist makes more sense than grabbing the shirt, since the fist is so far over to the side, and like you say, there's not really a grabbing motion like you'd do to grab the front of someone's shirt. But yeah, the distancing just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe if the opponent is stepping forward while punching you, so you can block the punch and grab their wrist when they're at a punching radius, and then backfist them once they're at more of clinch distance?

 

[MI_martialist]

Maybe you were taught wrong and they are not blocks.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Heian Nidan. You can see it best at 0:36 and 1:30.

This is the issue that some forms are not created as a logical sequence.

If a move is used to set up next move, it will be easier to see what the form creator's intention. Unfortunately in this form, a side block is followed by a downward block. Since these 2 block don't have any logic connection, the intention of the form creator's back hand is not shown. If the purpose of the back hand is used for next downward block, the questions are:

- How do you know that after your current side block, you will need a downward block?
- Why do you have to hold your back hand at that position if you just intend to do a downward block?

 

[DaveB]

Taeguk 7 is just a bunch of stuff thrown together. Whatever ideas they might have had were based on incomplete information. This is evidenced by the lack of reference to the stance.

The Karate movement, morote uke - reinforced block, is not a block. It was never a block. After WW2 application wasn't studied or taught, the powers that be just labelled everything that wasn't obviously a strike as a block. So it's like if you go to buy a bottle of cola but you find the cola label on a bottle of bleach.

Believe the label at your peril.

 

[TrueJim]

...This is evidenced by the lack of reference to the stance...

How do you mean? The lack of reference to the stance?

Your point about it being something other than a block intrigues me, and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter. You're thinking maybe it's a strike with the palmheel? That's an interesting thought. Maybe you're pulling your villainous opponent into you while striking the cad with your palm?

 

[Danny T]

I think we may be talking about different blocks. The block I'm referring to is one of the last techniques in Heian Nidan. You can see it best at 0:36 and 1:30.

It took a bit of searching to find a video that showed it fairly well, as all the other ones you see the technique from the back or from the right.

I find it hard to see this particular position as a triangle to hide the head behind. If it was a high block instead of an outward block, with the elbow just above the shoulder instead of below the shoulder, I could see it.

---

In thinking about this further, I realized that the hand motion of the support hand is very similar to the hand position of the Large Hinge Block in Keumgang Hyung. I was planning on doing another thread regarding the blocks in Keumgang Hung. It's described as a chamber position in some articles I've found, but I've seen it used effectively as a block against a backfist in Wing Chun exercises. It's also related (and I didn't see it until now) to the Small Hinge Block that shows up in our Palgwe 4 (and I believe Taegeuk 5) and also in Taebaek.

Going back to the other thread I was planning, I was planning to do the blocks in there because there's a lot of double blocks that are different from the other ones we've discussed so far, in that instead of a main hand and support hand, you have two separate blocks. For example, a scissors block, or the crane block in Keumgang, or the double-low block (to each side) or double outside block. But coming back to the double outside block, I now see it as an outside block with the "main" hand, and a large hinge block with the "support" hand.

This doesn't necessarily answer the question for me about it's purpose, but it allows me to look at the question from a different angle.

Arm grab counter to wrist lock or to armlock. Head or neck clinch counter.
Just because it is done at the same time in form doesn't mean it happens at the same time in application. It can just be one of the motions or the other or both.