Attackers who are high level Martial Artists

[47MartialMan]

It was all the above.
There is a TKD instructor in columbus ohio who has been decievin people for over 25 years,barking crap like "my TKD is UNBEATABLE on the streets"...and to be honest,with all the trophies from point competitions in his windows...he has made a damn good living! I used to train with his first gen BB's...they all quit him and went on to bigger and better things.
The whole family was arrogant because fo thier "training" and they thought they were invincible...thats why they fought 3 on 1....

and for the record...the TKD instructor is only 1 of 2(in 32 years of being in the arts) I would ever speak ill of in front of anybody...and I even told him face to face.
The other...supplimented his income with dealing drugs.
and both are still in business!
:shrug:

I had my "share" of people procaliming to be instructors. However, they had a identity cover-up instead of teaching a wrong attitude. Still, I had learned some interesting methods, which are applicable, and routines that I have not seen in other arts so far.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Scary thing is that a friend of mine (and fellow Instructor) would go to bars and nightclubs together. This was years ago BTW. I went to have some beers and meet women. I tended to have better luck with the beer than the women, but that's another story.
Anyway, he would ask me point blank if I wanted to get into a bar fight. I just looked at him like he were insane. I actually think he would have done it if I had agreed. After he went to Korea to teach English, he would tell me of his exploits getting into fights with Korean guys and using Tae Kwon Do on them and whatnot.

 

[Tony]

Scary thing is that a friend of mine (and fellow Instructor) would go to bars and nightclubs together. This was years ago BTW. I went to have some beers and meet women. I tended to have better luck with the beer than the women, but that's another story.
Anyway, he would ask me point blank if I wanted to get into a bar fight. I just looked at him like he were insane. I actually think he would have done it if I had agreed. After he went to Korea to teach English, he would tell me of his exploits getting into fights with Korean guys and using Tae Kwon Do on them and whatnot.

Thats really messed up and with his instructor too who should have taught him better than to pick fights. Its so sad that there still people who reach the high levels and misuse their training.

 

[47MartialMan]

Scary isn't it?

If he pick a fight in a bar in my ol neighborhood, he will get shot.

 

[Zoran]

I would say that Martial Artists that pick fights are in the very low minority. That being said, I bounced for about 10 years and have had to fight 2 higher level martial artists. One Kung Fu and one JKD. Alcohol does not discriminate and can make anyone stupid.

 

[MichiganTKD]

He did not go to bars WITH our instructor, he was a fellow instructor who would go to bars with me. Our instructor would have gotten very angry if he had known about this. His response would have been "some day you will meet real trouble".

 

[sgtmac_46]

I think there are several misconception about martial arts BY martial artists. Maybe too many Karate kid movies. Martial arts, at it's most basic, fundamental core, is about physical combat. I know there are people out there who would like to forget that. All the spiritual stuff, all the ethics, and all the rest, got tagged on later. Martial "arts" started out as martial ways, i.e., ways of warfare. The idea that being good at martial arts at it's basic rawest, is the same as being spiritual, ethical and moral, is a serious misconception. One does not of necessity have anything to do with the other. The belief that it does is only an indication of how well the myth has been perpetrated in our society.

Now, this isn't to say that martial arts won't teach values, morals and ethics. It is to say, however, that it is not a requirement to be moral and upright to be technically extremely skilled and talented. So the idea that only someone who sets themselves as an outstanding shining light to world, can be a skilled martial artist, is extremely silly and based on nothing more than wishful thinking.

I will agree with an earlier comment, however, that suggest that certain arts tend to attract more bellicose practioners. The true combat arts tend to attract extremely aggressive, self-assured and self-confident people. Arts like boxing, muay thai, even jui-jitsu or other full contact arts, tend to attract people who are more aggressive. Arts like Aikido tend to attract the more spiritually minded. This isn't necessarily the case in all situations, but I belief it's more the rule than the exception.

As per the original question about dealing with a skilled fighter in a real fight, you've got a problem. The more combat oriented the fighting style, the larger the problem it is. For example, I really don't want to have fight a highly skilled boxer in a barroom or on a street corner. The fact is, however, that of the different fighting arts, boxing and muay thai are likely to be the most common one you'll deal with on the street. They are also likely to be among the worst to confront. A good boxer can render an opponent unconcious very quickly.

All I can recommend is that training for self-defense, one should learn to spot different combat styles, for example, learn to spot a classic boxing stance, or the slightly altered step-and-slide pattern stepping of a muay thai practioner. Learn to spot how a wrestler sets up for attack or the different stances of different other arts. This will help you tailor your defense to their fighting style. If they are an upright fighter, take it too the ground and vice versa. When dealing with skilled fighters, however, you have a problem.

 

[Cruentus]

So, you mean that shaving my head, becoming vegan, wearing these goofy robes and sandles, cutting off my genitalia, and giving 50% of my income to my unquestionable martial arts master WON'T make me good at fighting.

I'm sorry Sgt. Mac, but that is just pure crap. I am going to now go meditate on how kindness enhances ones ability to bring death on all possible assailents.

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

On a serious note, I will say that some good morals/ethics/behaviors do indirectly enhance ones ability to achieve skill as a fighter/martial artist.

Reason is that most criminals are inherently lazy, have a host of psychological problems, or both.

People who try to make money off of crime are usually inherently lazy. If they weren't, then they wouldn't be trying to take shortcuts and would instead try to work hard and get a legit job like everyone else. Well, one thing that is nearly impossible to do is to become seriously skilled at fighting without working for it. Martial Artist who are skilled generally have to train hard to get there. Most criminals who do crime for $$ aren't guys who just left the boxing gym and are looking for random training opportunities (RTO's) on the street. Most criminals are looking for victims, and the easiest way to achieve their goals. Training hard is not really an easy way.

Other criminals who are not in it for the money, such as violent criminals who assault others frequently, have anger problems that cause criminal behavior, etc., usually have major psychological issues. In order to train hard and seriously, one has to possess a degree of patience, perserverance, humility (enough to be able to recognize mistakes for self improvement), a drive to better oneself, and a degree of positive thinking and self-worth. Someone with violent criminal tendencies and behaviors are usually lacking in one or more of these areas.

That all said, I am a pesamist when it comes to the skill levels of the average martial artist. I think that the average violent criminal would and could take the average martial artist in a fight. Most average martial artists took up "martial arts" in part because they are also lacking in one or more of the qualities that it would take to acheive a really high level of skill; except they lacking these qualities for different reasons - and that is because they are usually on the physically/mentally weaker side of society and they want to make improvements in those areas. This is why your more likely to hear, "I want to get in shape" or "I want to build self confidence" as viable reasons for taking a martial art over "I want to be a better fighter". The average criminal has been training through experience to monopolize on other peoples weaknesses, where as the average martial artist has not overcome their weaknesses enough to not get taken advantage of by the average criminal. So out of pure aggressiveness, violence, and ability to monopolize on the weaknesses of others, the average preditory criminal would be able to take the average martial artist.

That all said, if we are talking about the above average martial artist or even the extremely skilled martial artist, I would vote for the extremely skilled martial artist. The extremely skilled martial artist, in my opinion, IS also an extremely skilled fighter, and will be able to take care of most violent criminals (recognizing of course that no one is 100% safe, and that anyone could get killed regardless of skill). And, I would have to say that due to the nature of what it takes to achieve this high level of skill, I would say that most violent criminals do not possess the qualities to get there.

Paul

 

[TonyM.]

Gotta agree on all points. As a former correctional officer these have been my observations as well.

 

[sgtmac_46]

On a serious note, I will say that some good morals/ethics/behaviors do indirectly enhance ones ability to achieve skill as a fighter/martial artist.

Reason is that most criminals are inherently lazy, have a host of psychological problems, or both.

People who try to make money off of crime are usually inherently lazy. If they weren't, then they wouldn't be trying to take shortcuts and would instead try to work hard and get a legit job like everyone else. Well, one thing that is nearly impossible to do is to become seriously skilled at fighting without working for it. Martial Artist who are skilled generally have to train hard to get there. Most criminals who do crime for $$ aren't guys who just left the boxing gym and are looking for random training opportunities (RTO's) on the street. Most criminals are looking for victims, and the easiest way to achieve their goals. Training hard is not really an easy way.

Other criminals who are not in it for the money, such as violent criminals who assault others frequently, have anger problems that cause criminal behavior, etc., usually have major psychological issues. In order to train hard and seriously, one has to possess a degree of patience, perserverance, humility (enough to be able to recognize mistakes for self improvement), a drive to better oneself, and a degree of positive thinking and self-worth. Someone with violent criminal tendencies and behaviors are usually lacking in one or more of these areas.

That all said, I am a pesamist when it comes to the skill levels of the average martial artist. I think that the average violent criminal would and could take the average martial artist in a fight. Most average martial artists took up "martial arts" in part because they are also lacking in one or more of the qualities that it would take to acheive a really high level of skill; except they lacking these qualities for different reasons - and that is because they are usually on the physically/mentally weaker side of society and they want to make improvements in those areas. This is why your more likely to hear, "I want to get in shape" or "I want to build self confidence" as viable reasons for taking a martial art over "I want to be a better fighter". The average criminal has been training through experience to monopolize on other peoples weaknesses, where as the average martial artist has not overcome their weaknesses enough to not get taken advantage of by the average criminal. So out of pure aggressiveness, violence, and ability to monopolize on the weaknesses of others, the average preditory criminal would be able to take the average martial artist.

That all said, if we are talking about the above average martial artist or even the extremely skilled martial artist, I would vote for the extremely skilled martial artist. The extremely skilled martial artist, in my opinion, IS also an extremely skilled fighter, and will be able to take care of most violent criminals (recognizing of course that no one is 100% safe, and that anyone could get killed regardless of skill). And, I would have to say that due to the nature of what it takes to achieve this high level of skill, I would say that most violent criminals do not possess the qualities to get there.

Paul

Or they are an extremely violent, aggressive, and well trained sociopath who merely uses violence as a means to an end and doesn't have a concience. If that's the case, you have a problem. Lest we forget, the boxing world has it's fair share of street brawlers. Say what you will about Mike Tysons current performance, you wouldn't want to meet him on the street in a fight even now, much less ten years ago. But i'll agree that the majority of martial artists won't get in to street fights very often, for no other reason than there is really no percentages in, nothing to be gained and everything to be lost. High level martial artists have spent years acquiring their skill level. A 30 year old martial artist isn't the same person he was when he was 17. He has more skill, more training, and probably a family and a job.

 

[47MartialMan]

But i'll agree that the majority of martial artists won't get in to street fights very often, for no other reason than there is really no percentages in, nothing to be gained and everything to be lost. High level martial artists have spent years acquiring their skill level. A 30 year old martial artist isn't the same person he was when he was 17. He has more skill, more training, and probably a family and a job.

True, the martial artist soon learns that the practices isn;t about starting fights or looking to prove themselves.

Through time, many things change.

 

[Adept]

I think there are several misconception about martial arts BY martial artists. Maybe too many Karate kid movies. Martial arts, at it's most basic, fundamental core, is about physical combat. I know there are people out there who would like to forget that. All the spiritual stuff, all the ethics, and all the rest, got tagged on later. Martial "arts" started out as martial ways, i.e., ways of warfare. The idea that being good at martial arts at it's basic rawest, is the same as being spiritual, ethical and moral, is a serious misconception. One does not of necessity have anything to do with the other. The belief that it does is only an indication of how well the myth has been perpetrated in our society.

Right on. A lot of people I know get far too caught up in the spiritual side of martial arts, which is fine for them, but is completely seperate from being able to handle yourself in a pinch.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Right on. A lot of people I know get far too caught up in the spiritual side of martial arts, which is fine for them, but is completely seperate from being able to handle yourself in a pinch.

Exactly. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. You can be the biggest jerk in the world AND the toughest. In fact, i'll be willing to bet that the absolute best fighters throughout history are some of the most egotistical. You can't tell me that the best gladiators to fight in the colloseum were the nice guys. The way I see it, however, is that if i'm interested in learning from someone, the last thing I concern myself with is whether they are a jerk. I'd rather learn from a knowledgeable jerk, than a really nice incompetent. Personality means less to me than practical knowledge. Now, if two instructors are equal, and one of them is a nice guy, i'll go with the nice guy.

 

[Cruentus]

Or they are an extremely violent, aggressive, and well trained sociopath who merely uses violence as a means to an end and doesn't have a concience.

Yes, but the "well trained" part is what is few and far between. These people are extremely dangerous though. I would say that Mike Tyson fits the category, at least back then.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

I would say that Martial Artists that pick fights are in the very low minority. That being said, I bounced for about 10 years and have had to fight 2 higher level martial artists. One Kung Fu and one JKD. Alcohol does not discriminate and can make anyone stupid.

On an interest note! How did it turn out?

Regards

 

[47MartialMan]

Right on. A lot of people I know get far too caught up in the spiritual side of martial arts, which is fine for them, but is completely seperate from being able to handle yourself in a pinch.

Yes, I agree. The training has to surface or account for it. However, this is about people who are going to look to start or attack someone using their skills. Perhaps, almost no different than a mugger using a weapon.

 

[Zoran]

On an interest note! How did it turn out?

Regards

They both made some errors.

The Kung Fu guy was passing around his martial arts biz card and when I looked at it, the name rang a bell which is not a good sign. So I was very prepared. When he became physically confrontational, I basically grabed him and threw him down and wedged him under the cigerette machine and waited until he promised to relax.

The JKD guy's biggest mistake was to try to strike me while backing up at the same time. Even if I missed a block, there would not have been enough power in his strike to do any damage anyways. We ended up on the ground (he eventually took me there), but I guess I knew more aboout ground work than he, even if I am a Kenpo guy.

I actually wrote a short article on the last fight since it is one of the few that I remember very clearly. It can be found HERE.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

They both made some errors.

The Kung Fu guy was passing around his martial arts biz card and when I looked at it, the name rang a bell which is not a good sign. So I was very prepared. When he became physically confrontational, I basically grabed him and threw him down and wedged him under the cigerette machine and waited until he promised to relax.

The JKD guy's biggest mistake was to try to strike me while backing up at the same time. Even if I missed a block, there would not have been enough power in his strike to do any damage anyways. We ended up on the ground (he eventually took me there), but I guess I knew more aboout ground work than he, even if I am a Kenpo guy.

I actually wrote a short article on the last fight since it is one of the few that I remember very clearly. It can be found HERE.

Aha sounds good!
Cheers!:asian:

 

[rmcpeek]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but I haven't come across very many people in my years that walk around saying "Don't mess with me, I'm a Black Belt.".

I have come across plenty of people who say "Don't mess with me" and even with my years of training and experience both in the dojo and on the street, sometimes it's better not to mess with them and walk away.

In no way am I saying that I might fear these individuals, because I do not, but is it worth the trouble? or hassle? or lawsuits? Whether they're an experienced Black Belt with a bad attitude as you've described in the initial post here, or they're a streetfighter, does it matter?

Rember this, no matter what style you practice, no matter how much experience you have, there is and always will be someone BETTER than you.