jobo
Grandmaster
so,,,,,, to paraphrase, km it superior coz it teachs adaptability, using max aggression and doesnt attempt to teach skills through repetition
tma are inferior, as they pick specific scenarios, controlled aggresion and try and reinforce learning through repetition, just like just about any other skill training
is that a fair summary?
you make it sounds like an anger management class in reverse
OP
OP
Ivan
Black Belt
Hahaha. Perhaps it does sound like that. I don't believe traditional martial arts are inferior, I believe that their training methods are. Repetition simply doesn't work for such arts as most of the repetitions are done on partners that, in some cases without noticing, don't provide enough resistance to give the learner a fair knowledge of what to expect when applying this technique.
I brought this issue up in my traditional jiu-jitsu class and they said such training doesn't begin until I reached a black belt. But in other words, it means anyone who is training in this martial art who hasn't yet reached a black belt is in big trouble if they get into a street fight. In contrast, Krav Maga made me feel ready to apply the techniques it taught me from the very first lesson, as the techniques are applied quickly and forcefully from the get-go.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
My major issue is the testing and feedback of krav can quite simply be straight up rubbish. It doesn't really matter how fast the drills are applied. Sort of.
And I did similar drill based stuff for a while in a system called scientific fighting congress.
And the issue i had was as soon as someone wanted to actually punch me at speed I couldn't put together the drill based defenses I had practice.
This is because generally there are really important details that are missed within these drills. That are the functional differences between techniques working and techniques not working.
jobo
Grandmaster
well this is the same rabit hole, we have been down many timrs before.
there is always a disconect between practice and reality when it comes to full speed full power, unless its ring fighting and then there a disconect between how ring fight are conducted and how attacks commonly happen
but is,,, before we do the well rehearsed debate almost certain the better of the two, provided you dont mind being punched and kicked repeatedly week after week, which the major turn off for a lot of folk
how much any of this matters is of course almost entirly down to the abilities of who ever attacks you
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paitingman
Brown Belt
I think KM is generally excellent at teaching people how to deal with aggression.
From situational awareness, mindset, and drilling you can learn to ward off or regain control from a panicked response.
The training I've seen and experienced is generally not good for or aimed at building great technique. They really love to go high stress and rush each other when doing pressure drills, trying to overwhelm the person doing the drill.
Learning to resist that overwhelming feeling even while taking some damage, grit your teeth, and FIGHT BACK is very useful training.
In my sparring experience, I've only maybe 4 people who could handle themselves on the mat and all had actual ring training. The rest of them could pretty much be toyed with when asked to glove up and step on the mat. But that's only like 5 clubs for sample size and MMA sparring is not really what they focus on.
But I could say pretty much the same about TKD.
From situational awareness, mindset, and drilling you can learn to ward off or regain control from a panicked response.
The training I've seen and experienced is generally not good for or aimed at building great technique. They really love to go high stress and rush each other when doing pressure drills, trying to overwhelm the person doing the drill.
Learning to resist that overwhelming feeling even while taking some damage, grit your teeth, and FIGHT BACK is very useful training.
In my sparring experience, I've only maybe 4 people who could handle themselves on the mat and all had actual ring training. The rest of them could pretty much be toyed with when asked to glove up and step on the mat. But that's only like 5 clubs for sample size and MMA sparring is not really what they focus on.
But I could say pretty much the same about TKD.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
The issue is this makes self defence such an uncertain factor as to be rendered pointless.
An untrained person can win a fight. A UFC fighter can loose a fight. Therefore training has no effect on self defence.
In which case what are people selling when they talk about self defence training?
Or my idea that ring fighting pathways will make you better at fighting and with resistant training against decent guys you will know if the training is having any effect at all.
If you get better at fighting you will raise your odds of being able to defend yourself.
D
Deleted member 39746
Guest
I think its drills are pretty neat and at least are good drills for militarising something. Hammer fist and punching isnt unique or special andquality control issues arent reflective of the style. (you cant copy right everything or sue everyone)
Not related to the article but if i recall i will skim it at least at a later date.
Not related to the article but if i recall i will skim it at least at a later date.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
This I think is an example of what is missing from a krav style drill and for drills not really working. Generally unless the guy has real experience you don't get a good grasp on how to win an entry or win an exit. And so your techniques almost stop working as soon as the other person moves.
You just have all of these elements you have not accounted for.
Where as here he has won an entry.
Where as this for example pretty much won't work.
jobo
Grandmaster
well of course it has an effect, the only issue in play is how much of an effect and if that is sufficient to change the outcome of a confrontation with an opponent of very vague abilities and attributed .
it may as you sugest be of no practicle value at all or it may, you cant even begin to calculate that. in the very general terms we are talking about.
there are folk in my group that will never be in a postipn to defend themselves against any one over 12, not because there is anythibg wrong with either the system or the instuction, just that they are not prepared to suffer even mild discomfort let alone pain.
they complain bitterly and threaten to leave if you hit the focus pad to hard, have panic attacks if you grab them gently by the neck in an excersise about neck grabbing, and of course wont go on the floor if your doibg a throwibg exercise andthe first to calaple in a heap if there is a push up or similar exercise, they were hopless when they arived they will be hopeless 5 years from now.
they do however make up the greater % of the class and are therefore a financial necessity for the instructor
i ended up in conflict with the instructer for beibg heavy handed with them, when i was infact just playing with the intensity turned right down.i think the real issued was bubble bursting , i certainly wasnt hurting them
he decided to teach me a lession and gave me a full power wack, so i thought great, and wacked him back with a knee in the chest, a move he had tought me, he spent a minete having a rage attack and and panting and glarinintensely at me, serious considering attacking me, yea go on i thought il do you again.
my katate instruction is so effective i can take the instructer out
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This should be interesting.
OP
OP
Ivan
Black Belt
What are your thoughts?
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Why do you think there is an effect? Without having a measure to tell
jobo
Grandmaster
coz thereis a measure they are better at the mechanics of a punch for instance, so that a measure, is it not ?
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
It is a different measure.
jobo
Grandmaster
but its A measure of effect, which is what i said it was !
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
But that measure off effect doesn't effect your original statement.
"if that is sufficient to change the outcome of a confrontation with an opponent of very vague abilities and attributed"
jobo
Grandmaster
i know it doesnt effect my original statement, its not suppised to. my orginal statement was correct, , its addituonal details on my original statement to answer your query
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Your original statement invalidates your additional details.
It makes no difference if someone can punch better mechanically or not if the only issue in play is how much of an effect and if that is sufficient to change the outcome of a confrontation with an opponent of very vague abilities and atributes.
If we compare martial arts to the totality of violence one could possibly encounter there is literally no difference between training martial arts and eating potatoes.
Which is why we don't make that comparison.
Every fighting system uses repetition.
As a person who trains in a TMA and who spars to learn. I'm not sure how much resistance you think you'll actually need but, it doesn't take much to screw something up. I could teach you Kung Fu and give you 10% resistance and you'll screw up the technique every time. You won't be able to take 50% resistance until you know and understand the technique at a level where you can deploy it.
Boxing is the same way. How many videos have we seen where a boxer or MMA fighter challenges everyday people to try to hit them. The fighters are able to avoid punches with very little resistance.
How much fighting resistance is this guy giving
My personal experience in terms of fighting resistance, is that some of you guys out there should be thankful your sparring partner doesn't crank it up to 50% and knock you on your back with a punch or kick to the face. You should be thankful your ribs aren't breaking because you think not enough resistance isn't giving. I spared with another instructor at 40%, I still had to pull punches, and had to cut the sparring session short for his saftey. We had a total of 4 sparring sessions at that level of intensity. By the time we finished the 4th the was dreading the thought of sparring at the level and getting busted up.
If you want to be effective with using TMA systems or any system, then you need to trust the technique that you are using. You need to practice at a level that will allow you to safely take risks, and you need to accept that you are going to get hit a lot before you actually learn how to deploy the technique.
Sparring at a high aggression level is just going to make you play it safe with basic kicks and punches because the risk of being hit at that level = KO every sparring session.
Start small and work your way up.
