Article on Krav Maga

JowGaWolf

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For my father, traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu is the pinnacle of martial arts, so imagine his disappointment when he learnt that he wouldn't learn how to apply the techniques until he spent at least two years at the classes we attended.
Sorry he had to experience that. I personally wouldn't train at a school like that. The questions I asked when I get into Martial Arts as an Adult were.
1. Can I really use this stuff - They told me that what they train was practical
2. Do you spar - They not only told me that they did, but they also went into details about how they spart.

I was sold. Granted not everyone wants to learn how to fight using a fighting system, but for those who do, it's really important that applications are learned on day one with the basics. How to punch someone or kick someone really hard and what's required to do so.

It prepares you for a lot of situations in a very short amount of time, whereas repetition-only TMAs expect you to stick to them for such a large amount of time,
You have some schools who want you to stay with them a long time because they see you as income. So they draw things out longer than what's needed. Learning how to fight takes No one get there in 3 years. I look at fight development like everything else. It takes times and it's not a fast road. It's no different than learning to play an instrument. So if you were to take classes playing the trumpet, how long would it take you to be good? My guess is more than 3 years. Fighting's like that too. But the most important thing is that people get practice time, applying what they learn. Without practicing by doing, there's just no hope.

I don't blame the schools as much as I do the paying customers. If you are going to run a martial arts school as a business, then you learn quickly that your biggest customer are the ones who really don't want to learn how to fight. Many just want a belt or some trophies. You'll make money by providing services to those, but focus too much on fighting and you'll barely break even.

I think the best thing that happened for TMA was to have an MMA guy embarass TMA practitioners in such a public way that a lot of school are now changing how they are teaching. If I had to guess. I would say there were more TMA schools that focused on application of techniques in 2019 then there were in 1995, which is right around when I got into Jow Ga Kung Fu.. Back then Muay Thai wasn't popular, MMA gyms were no where to be found, and the only thing that people cared about was the color of a belt.
 

JowGaWolf

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Tips to finding a good school to learn to apply what you learn.
1. Ask if they have sparring
2. Ask then to either describe what the sparring classes are like or show a video or both.
3. Ask if you can visit on a sparring day
4. If the instructors start yelling when no one is using techniques, then that's probably a good school to train in for application
5. If the instructor just let people spar without using the applications, then I would avoid that school.

Not the best sparring, but you can hear the Sifu remind students to try and use applications from the form.

Adult sparring class. The one thing you don't hear is the instructor reminding the students about using techniques.

You can't learn how to apply a technique if you don't practice trying to use it. If you don't spar often, then you won't get much practice time in. My approach to training techniques is to take 2 or 3 basic techniques that you know and one that you don't know. The 3 that you do know should be used to help you set up the 1 that you don't know. Once you learn how to apply 1 technique then add 1 more. Now you'll use 4 techniques to set up the new technique that you don't know how to apply.

If the school only spars once a month then I would start looking for another place.
 

RTKDCMB

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Krav Maga uses combative drills and a philosophy that emphasises application and aggression over technique
That explains why you have to hit someone 5 or 10 times in the same spot in order to finish them, instead of just once (too much aggression, not enough technique).
 

jobo

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You're right. Some styles of Kung Fu have sparring, such JowGaWolf's Jow Ga. But it is a recurring theme across many TMAs. Aikido, JJJ, Shorinji Kempo, to name a few, only have randori and repetition.
yes but in your text, your damming all tma on a sample size of two,

there are certainly arts that seem to have,down graded the aquisision of fighting skills some what and tmas in general are not in a great rush to do anything much, unless irs a belt factory, then they are quite keen to part you from your money in short order.

your point is possibly valid, if fighting/ sd has a high time priority, you need to pick your arts , to some thing that has fewer techniques and very quickly accelerates to full force full restance, thats not really km, which in my exsperiances also suffers from compliant partner syndrome and depriving you of your funds

really you want a compiticion art, where they teach you from step one to compete, boxing and judo spribg immediatly to mind as mimimum frills for maximum effect, though there are im sure others that fit the bill
 

Hanzou

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Ah yes, Krav Maga, the system that puts out BS like this;


And claims to be the most effective MA on the planet.

I've rolled with a few KM guys who've migrated over to Bjj and MMA, and frankly if they want to put themselves over TMA guys, they need to check themselves. I've dealt with traditional Karate and Kung Fu practitioners who have better fighting skills.
 

JowGaWolf

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Ah yes, Krav Maga, the system that puts out BS like this;


And claims to be the most effective MA on the planet.

I've rolled with a few KM guys who've migrated over to Bjj and MMA, and frankly if they want to put themselves over TMA guys, they need to check themselves. I've dealt with traditional Karate and Kung Fu practitioners who have better fighting skills.
lol you know how to find the worst of things lol
 

Hanzou

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lol you know how to find the worst of things lol

509c464792241ea6177721705f2502f5.gif
 

Hanzou

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I wrote an article on Krav Maga and how its training methods are superior to those of traditional martial arts, and how the majority of martial art curriculums could benefit from them. I was wondering what your thoughts are about. Here is the link.

Jokes aside, upon reading your article, some rather obvious red flags stuck out to me. First and foremost, the idea that you don't do sparring and claim that this prepares you for self defense is laughable, and so is the reasoning behind it. Think about this from a logical standpoint; If you've NEVER actually done something, how do you know you can do it?

For example, groin kicks. You do know that some people aren't phased by kicks to the groin right? So what if your entire attack strategy revolves around kicking someone in the nuts (like that hilarious video I posted above) and it doesn't work?

In BJJ we practice choking, and we choke someone until they submit. If they don't submit, they pass out. However, there are some people who you simply aren't able to choke in certain positions, which is why it's invaluable for us to roll full blast to see what works and what doesn't work. If my entire strategy revolved around the triangle choke for example, and I never trained to deal with someone who simply can't be choked out with that choke, I'm royally screwed. However, since I have dealt with people like that, I know that I can immediately move out of the choke and go for arm bars, sweeps, or shoulder locks instead.

This is also why we've removed the "deadly" techniques from practice; so that we can practice the "safe" techniques over and over again against fully resistant partners until we master them. Learning the technique isn't enough, you have to know how to APPLY the technique as well.

Back to the triangle choke for example #2; I learned the triangle choke fairly early in my training. I knew it was effective, and I knew how to do it, however I simply could never get it to work for ME. It took years to develop an effective triangle choke, and frankly I would have never known I needed to work on it if it wasn't for sparring/rolling. Yeah, I would slap the legs together right, yeah I would grab the back of their head and push down, but I simply wasn't choking them. So I decided to spend 6 months just training the triangle until I got it right. Every roll I started from guard just so that I could practice that one technique because I knew it was important for self defense. Eventually I got it, and I had one of the best triangle chokes in my gym.

About a year later I got into a self defense situation where the triangle choke saved my life. If I had never sparred and just thought I "knew" the technique, I'd probably be pushing up daises right now.

I also can't stress just how terrible the concept of feint striking is. I'm not sure I read this correctly, but are you saying that you guys are purposely pulling punches? Are you actually getting hit at this school? I can unequivocally tell you right now that if you're training for self defense, you need to know how to take a full on strike, and you need to know HOW to strike. And the only way you learn that is by hitting a moving target trying to knock your block off.

Finally, the combat sports comment is just silly. Yeah we fight with "rules", but that doesn't mean that what we're doing still won't kill or maim you. If I hold my choke for a few minutes after you've passed out, you're dead. If I get some clown in a kimura and keep moving my body in the same direction, their shoulder is going to pop. If get them in a heel hook, they're not walking for a long time. This nonsense about "rules" is just silly talk, because people in combat sports know how to actually do the deed. They do it constantly, over and over again, against trained, resisting partners.

Boxers probably have more rules than any other combat sport/MA out there. I'd tell someone to train there before I'd recommend any Krav Maga school.

In the end, I'm happy you've found a martial art you enjoy. Unfortunately, I'm afraid you've drunk a little too much of their Kool-Aid. Cross-train in some other styles and see if your viewpoint changes. If not, good luck.
 
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Monkey Turned Wolf

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I wrote an article on Krav Maga and how its training methods are superior to those of traditional martial arts, and how the majority of martial art curriculums could benefit from them. I was wondering what your thoughts are about. Here is the link.
I have my doubts about this part:


    • The attacker chooses any moment to attack which they see fit
    • Once the defender understands the basic principles of the technique, the attacker can begin to attack at full speed and force
    • The defender must use maximum aggression in his technique
Note: Strikes don't actually make contact with the attacker - they are just feigned.

Points 2 and 3 don't really fit with the idea of no contact. If I'm attacking someone with full speed, I'm not going to be able to turn that off at the last second. For instance, I go to punch someone, with all my speed/force, not focusing on control, and at the last second they fake strike my neck. A: Intellectually I don't know how much damage their neck strike is actually going to do to simulate it, unless that particular person has struck my neck before. B: Even if I know that it would stop me in my tracks, without it I'm already too far gone and won't be able to suddenly stop my previously uninhibited punch, so you're still getting whacked in the face. Also, you'll get whacked full force every time you miss/don't respond in time.

I also don't know how I can use maximum aggression while avoiding contact.

I've got no issue with simulated drills, where you have one 'attacker', but it should be with the intent that the other person has to actually, physically stop the attack, and if they don't they're getting pounded on.

This also causes the issue you mention 2 paragraphs later, stating that KM eliminates it..if you don't make contact, you don't actually know that your strike is capable of stopping the attacker.

You've also got a different definition of randori then what I've seen in judo schools (no experience with Aikido). In judo, randori is just grappling-specific sparring, sometimes with a starting grip, sometimes not. Not prearranged/unrealistic attacks.

Many of you will have caught on by now, that this vastly contrasts with the approach by most martial arts. I know that in all the styles that I have trained that are based on the same type of self-defence grapples, would simply have me go back to the beginning and repeat the motion consistently.

The above statement isn't true in my experience. Just about everywhere I've trained that does self-defense for grappling situations, had the idea-if it didn't work, you're still stuck, try something else. The only time you go back and try it again is if you're drilling reps and/or trying to figure out what you're doing wrong (which is needed if you ever want to do the technique correctly). I can't say which idea is more prevalent, but your experience is very different from mine apparently.

I do agree that the aggressive mentality is key. It just doesn't seem like that Krav school (based on what you wrote) is actually providing that mentality properly.
 

stanly stud

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the only useful Krav Maga is the military system. The civilian stuff is just watered down crap
 

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I would say many of these points have benefited the respective systems. TMA is now more aware of ground fighting, “reality” self defense scenarios thanks to these modalities becoming more mainstream in the last 20 years.

I know in my own personal experience in my TMA training, there’s now cross training in these things introduced with the intention to prepare you if you encounter someone who has experience in one of these fighting styles. While I know I’ll never be as effective as someone who specializes in this, the working understanding is important to add to your own skill set.

Your article sights repetition in TMA as a negative and mentions the drilling until it becomes muscle memory as something that makes it inferior to KM. I disagree with this. Having techniques and drilling them to the point of muscle memory physically conditions you to respond with more effective reactions.

Boxing with its small amount of techniques and punches are drilled constantly and makes it extremely effective in street fighting. Many law enforcement agencies teach boxing to their recruits during academy training because of this.

I don’t have any experience in what the KM military style is like, but the civilian stuff I’ve seen is good and does take a different approach from TMA. If i didn’t have time to train and learn I do see the practicality in something like that. However, a TMA who drills, and spars regularly will have a very good idea about what works and how to apply it. Even if sparring isn’t a 100% reflection on a reality based scenario.
 

drop bear

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lol you know how to find the worst of things lol

Honestly that video is a reflection of the issues with getting your feedback from these drills and scenarios that op mentions.

If they are done badly.

Basically factored in you have this idea that say, I punch you in the nuts you have to let me progress. So what happens is you get attacked. Do rubbish, rubbish, rubbish, nut punch, you take the next position rubbish, rubbish and so on.

It literally never prepares you for a contest for dominance. Because you always have an escape clause.

Eg.
Have I mentioned how much I dislike industry training?

So this guy has one job. Teach a basic sprawl. But because there is no proper feedback. This one basic task gets turned in to something pointless.

And it is weird. So many people do this.

I was just having a look at that series and it is consistently dreadful. And he should have half a clue. He has a decent resume.

Richard Nance
 
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stanly stud

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I would say many of these points have benefited the respective systems. TMA is now more aware of ground fighting, “reality” self defense scenarios thanks to these modalities becoming more mainstream in the last 20 years.

I know in my own personal experience in my TMA training, there’s now cross training in these things introduced with the intention to prepare you if you encounter someone who has experience in one of these fighting styles. While I know I’ll never be as effective as someone who specializes in this, the working understanding is important to add to your own skill set.

Your article sights repetition in TMA as a negative and mentions the drilling until it becomes muscle memory as something that makes it inferior to KM. I disagree with this. Having techniques and drilling them to the point of muscle memory physically conditions you to respond with more effective reactions.

Boxing with its small amount of techniques and punches are drilled constantly and makes it extremely effective in street fighting. Many law enforcement agencies teach boxing to their recruits during academy training because of this.

I don’t have any experience in what the KM military style is like, but the civilian stuff I’ve seen is good and does take a different approach from TMA. If i didn’t have time to train and learn I do see the practicality in something like that. However, a TMA who drills, and spars regularly will have a very good idea about what works and how to apply it. Even if sparring isn’t a 100% reflection on a reality based scenario.
end of the day it´s more about finding a good teacher. I went to one group here & honestly the so called Teacher was a specky little drip who clearly never had a real fist fight in his life. Not slagging off any systems but you have to be realistic.
 
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Ivan

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That explains why you have to hit someone 5 or 10 times in the same spot in order to finish them, instead of just once (too much aggression, not enough technique).
Kicking someone in the groin once is enough. Re stomping the groin makes sure they don't come at you again
origin.jpg
 
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Ivan

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I have my doubts about this part:


    • The attacker chooses any moment to attack which they see fit
    • Once the defender understands the basic principles of the technique, the attacker can begin to attack at full speed and force
    • The defender must use maximum aggression in his technique
Note: Strikes don't actually make contact with the attacker - they are just feigned.

Points 2 and 3 don't really fit with the idea of no contact. If I'm attacking someone with full speed, I'm not going to be able to turn that off at the last second. For instance, I go to punch someone, with all my speed/force, not focusing on control, and at the last second they fake strike my neck. A: Intellectually I don't know how much damage their neck strike is actually going to do to simulate it, unless that particular person has struck my neck before. B: Even if I know that it would stop me in my tracks, without it I'm already too far gone and won't be able to suddenly stop my previously uninhibited punch, so you're still getting whacked in the face. Also, you'll get whacked full force every time you miss/don't respond in time.

I also don't know how I can use maximum aggression while avoiding contact.

I've got no issue with simulated drills, where you have one 'attacker', but it should be with the intent that the other person has to actually, physically stop the attack, and if they don't they're getting pounded on.

This also causes the issue you mention 2 paragraphs later, stating that KM eliminates it..if you don't make contact, you don't actually know that your strike is capable of stopping the attacker.

You've also got a different definition of randori then what I've seen in judo schools (no experience with Aikido). In judo, randori is just grappling-specific sparring, sometimes with a starting grip, sometimes not. Not prearranged/unrealistic attacks.

Many of you will have caught on by now, that this vastly contrasts with the approach by most martial arts. I know that in all the styles that I have trained that are based on the same type of self-defence grapples, would simply have me go back to the beginning and repeat the motion consistently.

The above statement isn't true in my experience. Just about everywhere I've trained that does self-defense for grappling situations, had the idea-if it didn't work, you're still stuck, try something else. The only time you go back and try it again is if you're drilling reps and/or trying to figure out what you're doing wrong (which is needed if you ever want to do the technique correctly). I can't say which idea is more prevalent, but your experience is very different from mine apparently.

I do agree that the aggressive mentality is key. It just doesn't seem like that Krav school (based on what you wrote) is actually providing that mentality properly.
I feel as if I haven't quite got my point across properly. Moreover, I personally think I am able to throw strikes with full speed and little power and I have tried to do so before.

Some of the strikes which the defendes uses in applying the technique cannot be used in training i.e. we weren't able to kick the groin, so we would either kick the inside of the thigh or stop before striking. Regardless, once we were comfortable enough to do so, we would do the same stuff with speed.

Lastly, perhaps it is a difference in experiences, but up until now with my classes in traditional styles - it was their way or the highway.
 
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Ivan

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Ah yes, Krav Maga, the system that puts out BS like this;


And claims to be the most effective MA on the planet.

I've rolled with a few KM guys who've migrated over to Bjj and MMA, and frankly if they want to put themselves over TMA guys, they need to check themselves. I've dealt with traditional Karate and Kung Fu practitioners who have better fighting skills.
Another thing I stated in my article is that KM doesn't have a strict curriculum. This means that every KM practitioner will know different methods for escaping the same situation. Undoubtedly, this does give rise to fake and dangerous techniques.
 

Oni_Kadaki

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Have I mentioned how much I dislike industry training?

So this guy has one job. Teach a basic sprawl. But because there is no proper feedback. This one basic task gets turned in to something pointless.

Richard Nance

Right there with you... The idea that you can "certify" someone as ready to defend themselves within a few days, be it through part of a larger training (e.g. Air Force Security Forces tech school) or just a stand alone program, seems absurd to me. Hand-to-hand combat, like anything else, is a perishable skill, especially if your initial training only consisted of a few hours, total.

As for the article, I have a few thoughts. For reference, I trained in Krav Maga for three months while on a TDY in San Angelo, TX, and I have a lot of experience in traditional martial arts.

First, I think your premise that repetitions of a technique are not helpful is straight-out wrong. While it makes a lot of sense to train without resistance at first, such that you can learn how the technique is supposed to go, any instructor who isn't delusional will encourage students to experiment with different degrees of active and passive resistance as they become more comfortable with how the technique is supposed to look. I know that, even in my Aikido school, I have a few select partners who I can count on to make it very difficult for me to move them, which only serves to enhance my ability to do so. But, all that aside, muscle memory, though a misnomer, does exist, and it is extremely valuable, particularly in a life or death situation. The only way you truly get to muscle memory is by repeated drilling.

Second, I believe sparring is a valuable exercise. Can you do knife hands to the throat, or eye pokes, or groin kicks, in sparring? No. Are you going to find yourself squared up in real life? Well, if you have, you probably missed a good opportunity to abscond and avoid the fight entirely. But, even with these limitations, sparring is kind of like cops and military training with simunitions... It's not the real thing, but it's as close as we can get without killing each other, and that makes it valuable. Also, you want to talk about pulling off techniques on a partner who offers resistance? Look no further than sparring.

Overall, I'm with Kemposhot and others, who say it's less about the art itself, and more about the practitioner and how he/she trains. I've known Aikidoka who were formidable in a fight, and I've known Krav Maga students who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. The art is only as good as the degree to which it serves the artists needs, and the degree to which they train effectively.
 

stanly stud

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Another thing I stated in my article is that KM doesn't have a strict curriculum. This means that every KM practitioner will know different methods for escaping the same situation. Undoubtedly, this does give rise to fake and dangerous techniques.
yes and you know that learning a lot of techniques is useless. better to learn fewer but better. how many techniques does a boxer need?
 

stanly stud

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Right there with you... The idea that you can "certify" someone as ready to defend themselves within a few days, be it through part of a larger training (e.g. Air Force Security Forces tech school) or just a stand alone program, seems absurd to me. Hand-to-hand combat, like anything else, is a perishable skill, especially if your initial training only consisted of a few hours, total.

As for the article, I have a few thoughts. For reference, I trained in Krav Maga for three months while on a TDY in San Angelo, TX, and I have a lot of experience in traditional martial arts.

First, I think your premise that repetitions of a technique are not helpful is straight-out wrong. While it makes a lot of sense to train without resistance at first, such that you can learn how the technique is supposed to go, any instructor who isn't delusional will encourage students to experiment with different degrees of active and passive resistance as they become more comfortable with how the technique is supposed to look. I know that, even in my Aikido school, I have a few select partners who I can count on to make it very difficult for me to move them, which only serves to enhance my ability to do so. But, all that aside, muscle memory, though a misnomer, does exist, and it is extremely valuable, particularly in a life or death situation. The only way you truly get to muscle memory is by repeated drilling.

Second, I believe sparring is a valuable exercise. Can you do knife hands to the throat, or eye pokes, or groin kicks, in sparring? No. Are you going to find yourself squared up in real life? Well, if you have, you probably missed a good opportunity to abscond and avoid the fight entirely. But, even with these limitations, sparring is kind of like cops and military training with simunitions... It's not the real thing, but it's as close as we can get without killing each other, and that makes it valuable. Also, you want to talk about pulling off techniques on a partner who offers resistance? Look no further than sparring.

Overall, I'm with Kemposhot and others, who say it's less about the art itself, and more about the practitioner and how he/she trains. I've known Aikidoka who were formidable in a fight, and I've known Krav Maga students who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. The art is only as good as the degree to which it serves the artists needs, and the degree to which they train effectively.
what gets me is the so called experts who teach knife defence. a knife is so quick & a change of angle is too quick. Better if you have a weapon like in escrima. where i live you get a lot of idiots running around at night when i go running so i carry a compact telescopic baton. no f-cking around because if you will have a chance you need a tool..simple as that.
 

stanly stud

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I remember in the British Army they tought us some unarmed combat & they said it was Aikido but it was a lot shorter & not so wishy washy as Aikido. Also with a stick or baton. sure it was OK the stick work as we had to control aggresive people in riots(won´t go into this). The main emphisis was on simple boxing. fitness & boxing. why ? because it works...bang, bang in a bar fight down he goes. no fancy sh-t
 
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