stanly stud
Blue Belt
you just do not know however even a Mod can learn. I do not need long winded explanations i know what works nor do i need to analyse every small detail. you are a "Technician" i am a practitioner. get it?
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I would understand the position in terms of learning to use it for self defense. The Guard is an excellent self defense tool after all.
However, if your goal is self defense and you're not looking to get into combat sports, there's really no need to learn how get out of strong BJJ/MMA Guards. As you say, you could probably spend a weekend goofing off with your classmates getting out of their Guard, but I wouldn't have a class about it. I certainly wouldn't make a video about it to promote my non-sports combat school.
Nope. Not everyone likes long winded explanations. The short version drop bear gave you and you didn't get: Power is important. A wimpy eye poke won't land. The long version is too long for you.
There's a reason for it, which is to help others learn how to use the guard.
If I'm learning how to keep someone in my guard, I'd rather learn it on someone who actually knows how to get out of a guard. So that if I try it in real life, and the guy knows what to do, I'm not screwed. The only way for me to practice that is if my partner knows how to escape a guard.
stanly stud
Blue Belt
OK whatever mate. can´t be arsed to discuss it with you if you are so pig headed.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Yeah, but here's the thing; There's a systematic approach to properly escaping the Guard that someone untrained attacking you isn't going to utilize. So even if that is the goal, using an untrained person's reaction to your Guard is the best approach. If you teach someone how to properly escape the Guard, they're going to use those proper escaping tactics which is good for them, but actually bad for the person doing the Guard (for self defense). Which is why in my old gym (which was self defense oriented Bjj) we would take time out, put gloves and mouthpieces on, and spend a class dealing with an untrained person trying to get out of our guards.
As Drop Bear said, if you're in a SD situation and somehow you have an assailant on their back with you on top and they wrap their legs around you, you can just punch them in the face and stand up. The idea that you're going to be dealing with someone who has an excellent Guard game on the street is laughable.
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10 years ago I'd have agreed with you. But more people know how to grapple than they used to, so it's more likely that someone will know the basics of a guard/how to escape it, meaning it's something to train for. Not doing so is like the people who say that they don't need good striking skills cause the bad guy won't know how to punch.
stanly stud
Blue Belt
can i ask you what you have trained in?
stanly stud
Blue Belt
who were the pro fighters? where & when?
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I would argue though that being proficient in the Guard to the point where you you're using it for offense instead of defense requires an extremely high level of grappling proficiency. Hell, I've been in Bjj for almost 20 years and I wouldn't offensively use Guard in a self defense situation. Defensively? Of course. Offensively? No way.
Not offensively using guard. But escaping guard doesn't require a whole lot of proficiency. So more people know how to do it, which means you've got to train against people who know how to do it now.
This is the problem of most TMA schools. I'm not sure if it's a cultural thing. But a lot of schools will show you what to do but not, how to actually set it up. This is one thing that I always tried to include when I taught. It wasn't enough for me to just say. "Do THIS like THIS and the result is THAT" For me it was always important to show what I was doing doing in terms of the technique, then actually show how I would set the technique up. Not knowing how to set things up is like a chocolate cake without the chocolate.
I don't share who, mostly because I've never discussed with them talking about it online and I don't know what they do/don't want to share. Below is my experience, but keep in mind a lot of this occurred together, and it's been over the span of a couple decades so the years are my best guess.
kempo: 18-20 years, but I started around 3 so I wouldn't count most of that.
kickboxing: 5-6 years
boxing: 4 years
fencing (if you include that, it helped when I switched to kali): 4 years
Knife fighting-taught by my fencing teacher for those 4 years, he had a background in a couple MAs not sure where he learned the knife fighting from. Very similar to kali though.
sambo: 4 years
BJJ and judo: on/off, probably 1.5 years of actual training, stopped both due to injuries for a bit, then started again like a month before covid.
muay thai: 1 year
kali: What I currently train, I think I started around 3/4 years ago.
stanly stud
Blue Belt
ok but i do not think you have much experience. I boxed at Army level so no pro but i do not believe you boxed 4 years but it does not matter i am not on here to make enemies.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Yeah but in a self defense situation, how often are you going to encounter someone using the Guard on you? How often are you going to encounter someone using the Guard to the point where they're a threat to you? I'm running through self defense scenarios in my head and I really can't think of one where you, the victim is wrapped up in an assailant's Guard and in mortal danger. I can't even think of a scenario where you end up in someone's Guard if you're being attacked by someone.
Like for example, if you're a woman and some rapist attempts to pin you down, you get into Guard, sweep them, and end up on top. You're not in their Guard, you're in Mount.
You're leaving a bar and some goon tackles you to the ground, and you enter Guard, wrap them up, sweep them and end up on top. Again, you're not in their Guard, you're in Mount.
Help me out here, I'm just not seeing a situation where you'd wind up in an attacker's Guard. I suppose MAYBE you could sock some clown in the face, they fall to the ground, and you follow them to the ground and your start wrestling with them and they could put you in Guard, but why would you ever follow someone to the ground in a crowded room if you're standing?
Even if that happened inside your house and you knocked an assailant to the ground, why would you follow them to the ground? Just start soccer kicking them in the head or curb stomping them.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Have a look at that position where the guy is bent over and the side of his head is blocked by an elbow.
You think you could reach the eye?
stanly stud
Blue Belt
clutching at straws here..what if ..what if.
I really only like things like eye gouges when they are covered as an option from a given position, with perhaps a few repetitions to allow time to explore the openings. Good striking, positioning, etc. are the fundamental skills. Gouging is just a potential use in a relatively small number of circumstances.
“Do” isn’t “not real”, it’s just focused on things other than combat. As for nikkyo and related locks not working, I know a couple of prison guards and a few cops who’d disagree. If you use them properly, and set them up with positioning and structure-breaking, they have value.
Says the guy who never really tried to discuss it to start with.
