Are the Best 'Chunners Chinese?

[matsu]

/\
that was a very good post
nicely put
matsu

 

[geezer]

The real question is what is your basis for determining "best".

Skill at chi sau? Real fighting ability? etc. If the standard is real usage against other skilled opponents in a sparring ,ring, starting apart and waiting till both are ready type of setting then I would tilt to those in the west but nothing is exclusive...

I think those in the west have over the last 15 years or so have put more time into training against MMA type of skills and therefore have made more progress in making their wing chun more effective in real fighting situations.

I think my friend was thinking along the same lines. And I believe he was referring to the younger generation of "masters"... those in their forties or early fifties. We all share great respect for the older generation including Great Grandmaster Ip Man and his prominent disciples. But what about the younger generation who are confronting more diverse approaches to unarmed combat? As the art adapts and evolves, where are the most effective fighters emerging? I believe my friend would concurr with Hunt. If you sift the wheat from the chaff, there are some very effective fighters emerging in the US and Europe.

 

[Vajramusti]

Hi Hunt1 and Stephen--I respect your opinions but I happen to have a different perspective. There are lots of "fighters" with different backgrounds.
One does not have to learn wing chun to fight. But wing chun is a very effective fighting system. I may not have met who you have met and you may not have met who I have met.Our data bases for judgment calls are likely to be different.
With the right wing chun training, a person Chinese or non Chinese can deal with a grapplers take down attempt... and a "sprawl" is not really wing chun and there are counters to sprawls.Cheers.

joy chaudhuri

 

[mook jong man]

While TST's Hong Kong students do probably not deal with take downs as it is not really in their culture to do so.

I can assure you that his Australian disciples do , we don't have a culture of high school wrestling in this country , but what we do have is a sport called Rugby League , a very brutal game in which no padding is worn.

Most boys in Australia will grow up playing this game and are taught to tackle from a very young age , so consequently in a lot of street fights a hard and fast spear tackle to the ground will usuually be on the cards.

So in our training we will work on defences against tackles from all angles , my favourite counter is to shift one foot back in a full body pivot , slap my Fook Sau down hard on the back of their neck/skull as I control one of the grabbing arms , if the Fook Sau hasn't knocked them out then you can ram them head first into a wall or direct their face down into the concrete.

But stopping them from completing the grip in the first instance is crucial , so that they're forward drive can be absorbed with your arms and pivot.
If they can get a direct connection with your body ie their shoulder to your waist or leg , then the situation becomes a lot more dire .

 

[coffeerox]

My interpetation of the video is that they were really throwing attacks out there and what I saw was actual redirects which means the technique was successful. Especially the guy in black. Read the comments on the video as well, the guy who posted the video was the one who recorded it and have some interesting things to say.

Here's one with Ip Ching and Samuel Kwok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnHlLiYmVXA&NR=1&feature=fvwp

 

[zepedawingchun]

My interpetation of the video is that they were really throwing attacks out there and what I saw was actual redirects which means the technique was successful. Especially the guy in black. Read the comments on the video as well, the guy who posted the video was the one who recorded it and have some interesting things to say.

Here's one with Ip Ching and Samuel Kwok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnHlLiYmVXA&NR=1&feature=fvwp

The mainland Wing Chun guy's chi sao looks nothing like Yip Ching and Sam Kwok's chi sao. The mainland guys are doing a lot of chasing the hands, swinging wildly because they are trying to stick and/or unstick to get something on each other, which makes it look like redirecting. Their arms are swing way too much out of the centerline, they are all over the place. Plus, they are jumping around, have no stance or horse to speak of. Still pretty sloppy, very bad examples of what chi sao is supposd to be or how most Wing Chun people do it. But if that's what they call chi sao, so be it.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Read the comments to the clip of the mainland WC guys . . .

quote
'sjander29 says,
craft....As far as Aggressive goes , ...I think it`s exactly what ph8tel said,..." on camera ,...the Face is involved so everyone tries to Win. As soon as you try to win at Chi Sao ,we stiffen up ,and ...quality takes a nose dive. Also ,what are you comparing this to for Aggression? Check out other Wing Chun videos -would an elbow to the head , a chop to the throat , or a stomp to the knee be less aggressive?...Actually , the 3rd pair of players were Excellent ! Pure " Yiu Choi" by the way.

sjander29 11 months ago' unquote.

He says when a camera gets pulled out, it's all about saving face and their chi sao gets sloppy.

 

[BlueVino]

So, my question is, based on your experiences, do you feel that the Chinese standard is still the highest, or is the most advanced WC/WT/VT now being trained elsewhere and by non-Chinese individuals? In short, "Where is the best Wing Chun being taught today?"

Not WC specific, I haven't touched hands much outside of my lineage.
I've heard from a couple of knowledgeable people that the Cultural Revolution drove a lot of the kung fu masters away from mainland China. Many of the old Chinese masters are living out their days in Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, etc. It's far less clear to me if they're passing their kung fu on to anyone outside of their families.

From my overall martial arts exposure, I've attended seminars and such with the highest hands from all over the world. I haven't seen a significant variation in skill that could be attributed to nationality.

 

[Danny T]

Hmm! That was somewhat entertaining. I would advise small movements small mistakes, large movements large mistakes. A lot of motion out of and away from the center.
Don't know how I would fare with them but I know this much. If I gave zepedawingchun (as well as most of my wing chun brothers) that much of an opening he would own my center instantly.

 

[mook jong man]

I tried that big circle type of rolling today with one of my private students , and there is absolutely no way on this earth you can protect your centreline.

We were smashing each other in the chest left right and centre , the only value I can see in it is maybe using it as a warm up .

Probably start off rolling that way to mobilise and relax the joints , then once your suitably relaxed start closing the circle and bringing it all to the centre.

 

[cwk]

it's difficult, but with practice, it can be done. You've got to keep the circular movements as small as possible.
I wouldn't recommend only rolling this way though, you need to practice the other types as well.

 

[coffeerox]

I tried that big circle type of rolling today with one of my private students , and there is absolutely no way on this earth you can protect your centreline.

We were smashing each other in the chest left right and centre , the only value I can see in it is maybe using it as a warm up .

Probably start off rolling that way to mobilise and relax the joints , then once your suitably relaxed start closing the circle and bringing it all to the centre.

Master Wong does something like mainland China Chi Sao, what do you think of the rolling shown here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dloKi9VNwHM&feature=channel

 

[mook jong man]

Master Wong does something like mainland China Chi Sao, what do you think of the rolling shown here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dloKi9VNwHM&feature=channel

God where do I start.
I suppose I'll start from the ground up.
He suffers from the same thing the others did in the other clips.

1. No stance , he is standing up too high and leaning in.
2. Upper and lower body unlocking at the hips no body unity.
3. Relaxation doesn't appear to be a priority in his Chi sau and he is using too much brute strength which might explain why his shoulders and upper body are all over the place.
4. Hands crossing over the centreline which leads to being easily trapped by somebody dropping their Fook Sau on your crossed Bong and Fook and then punching over the top.
5. He is going fast , but this is probably an effort to cover up a multitude of sins.
6. But the most important thing of all is he has to keep his mouth shut and lose the dumb **** sound effects , he sounds like he's auditioning for a chop socky film.

 

[cwk]

This is the type of rolling I'm talking about. from about 1.52 min in.

 

[mook jong man]

This is the type of rolling I'm talking about. from about 1.52 min in.

Very interesting the form he was doing looks like a conglomeration of all the forms rolled into one along with some movements that I have never seen before and couldn't even guess what the application would be.

With the Chi sau it looks like it is totally driven by the forearms , without any involvement from the elbows.

The angles are not maintained in the arms at all , and it looks to me like the whole thing is derived from the Huen sau movement but without keeping the angles of the arms .

Without using the elbows to drive forward I don't think there is anyway of attacking the opponents stance or structure , you are just sticking and following the opponents wrists.

Any redirection would be done with just the forearm requiring more muscular effort instead of using the weight and angle of the whole arm

I won't be trying this one mate , I have enough trouble trying to keep my angles now .

 

[profesormental]

Greetings!


Interesting stuff. Even some Neutral Bow stances.

Master Wong is a colorful character and quite funny at times. His Chi Sao and techniques are strong, yet somewhat muscled.

Chi Sao at one level is very much like "pummeling" in wrestling, except that the forearms are the contact points. It is used to create certain points of reference to train certain techniques safely.

The reason it is done in a certain "relaxed" manner is that the point is not to overpower or overspeed your training partner with strikes...

it is to position yourself in a posture of advantage and your training partner in a negative martial posture.

If you develop these positioning sequences, when you train against attacks that have significant intent, you can then train them and turn them from soft synaptic paths to "hardened" synaptic paths that are inoculated against the adrenal stress syndrome.

Only then will your skills be there in the event of a self defense type situation, where the adrenal stress syndrome takes place. Another fact is that adrenal stress training is stimulus specific, so the stimulus (punch, or strike, or grab, or whatever) must be practiced and applied in a realistic manner (with reasonable safety parameters) as to create the necessary effects.

Too much speed and power will cause your attacker to cover up and/or disengage, making most of your attacks that work in Chi Sao practice, impractical. The purpose is control of positioning so that you can strike from a position of advantage.

Control is done via strikes, manipulations, etc. Timing and sensitivity are important, as are the sequences and objectives. To reach higher levels of practicality, the adrenal stress training should be against real attacks as encountered in real situations.

Thus Chi Sao is a step, towards self defense drills.

There are many unknown practitioners of Wing Chun that I'm sure have great skills, here in the Americas, as well as in China and Europe and everywhere in the planet.

The essence of Wing Chun is in the name... Eternal Springtime... Eternal Growth.

My experience is that Wing Chun will change to get even better, as it must. Many paths will converge and look similar, others won't.

My training has made the Wing Chun I train and teach change, measurably for the better. It is still in a process of refinement and change as I keep discovering and improving upon what I have. Interestingly enough, my Wing Chun doesn't look that dissimilar from others... yet it FEELS different, as I have to make less effort to obtain even greater effects.

Those that do this in their daily practice can be considered among the best. Those that don't run the risk of stagnating.

Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado

P.S. Try that Chi Sao against someone trying to crack your head open at full speed with straight and/or elliptical punches... the angles of contact are different and I'm sure the arms will collapse against the pressure of the strikes. To e more specific I would have to go on a case by case basis, so ask if you're interested.

 

[matsu]

we do that sort of rolling too but as mook has said we are told to control with our elbow control and "intention"
not that im any good at it lol

oh and MISTER wongs chi sau,he might be able to kick my *** everyday of the week ,...... but not with that chisau!

matsu

 

[zepedawingchun]

Hmm! That was somewhat entertaining. I would advise small movements small mistakes, large movements large mistakes. A lot of motion out of and away from the center.
Don't know how I would fare with them but I know this much. If I gave zepedawingchun (as well as most of my wing chun brothers) that much of an opening he would own my center instantly.

Hi SiDai Danny, thanks for the complement. And I know you would do the same to me if I gave you half as much of an opening as they did. Of course, I'd have to help pick you up off the floor afterwards because you would laugh so hard after hitting me a dozen times or so and laughed yourself to falling down.

You going to be in Atlanta this weekend for the Chi Sao Workshop? Unfortunately, I can't make it. One of my students is having a Grand Opening for his Thai Boxing class and I promised him I'd be there. But I have a couple of others who will be going.

 

[zepedawingchun]

God where do I start.
I suppose I'll start from the ground up.

He suffers from the same thing the others did in the other clips.

1. No stance , he is standing up too high and leaning in.
2. Upper and lower body unlocking at the hips no body unity.
3. Relaxation doesn't appear to be a priority in his Chi sau and he is using too much brute strength which might explain why his shoulders and upper body are all over the place.
4. Hands crossing over the centreline which leads to being easily trapped by somebody dropping their Fook Sau on your crossed Bong and Fook and then punching over the top.
5. He is going fast , but this is probably an effort to cover up a multitude of sins.
6. But the most important thing of all is he has to keep his mouth shut and lose the dumb **** sound effects , he sounds like he's auditioning for a chop socky film.

I agree with everything mook jong man says, but you can see Wong Master has some skills. He still doesn't look anything like the guys from the mainland in the previous clip.

What I have noticed from time to time, when you have someone with a good amount of skill working with someone who is not their equal in skill and ability, a lot of times the greatly skilled person just does everything a bit lazy. Like they don't focus on their stance, or proper elbow position, closing off their center, feet pointed outward instead of pidgeon-toed, things like that. They do it lazily because they don't feel the person they are working with is any kind of a threat to their over all structure, center, etc. I'll bet if Wong Master was working with someone closer to his skill level, everything would change, he'd close up his center, lower his stance, relax and focus on doing everything correct. Just my 2 cents.

 

[mook jong man]

I agree with everything mook jong man says, but you can see Wong Master has some skills. He still doesn't look anything like the guys from the mainland in the previous clip.

What I have noticed from time to time, when you have someone with a good amount of skill working with someone who is not their equal in skill and ability, a lot of times the greatly skilled person just does everything a bit lazy. Like they don't focus on their stance, or proper elbow position, closing off their center, feet pointed outward instead of pidgeon-toed, things like that. They do it lazily because they don't feel the person they are working with is any kind of a threat to their over all structure, center, etc. I'll bet if Wong Master was working with someone closer to his skill level, everything would change, he'd close up his center, lower his stance, relax and focus on doing everything correct. Just my 2 cents.

Thats true he has got some skill , but how much better could he be if he did everything properly.

Also its fair to point out that working with a less skilled overly compliant student that just lets you trap them and use them like a human wooden dummy will make anyone look like they are the next Yip Man.

I just think the guy is dodgy , I remember a while ago now we had a discussion on here about him and apparently someone said that he won't reveal his lineage or who he was taught by , which seems very suspect to me .