Are "dojo" and "gi" English words at this point?

[skribs]

This question is related to a discussion argument I was in on Reddit. In discussing the usage of these terms outside of Japanese arts, I originally was thinking of these terms like "Xerox" for copiers or "Hoover" for vacuums. But then I decided to look it up. In every online dictionary I found, "dojo" was there. Half of them had "gi" (all of them had GI but only half of them had gi).

The definitions for "dojo" also were not style-specific, although any specific examples were Japanese arts. For example:

• From merriam-webster.com: a school for training in various arts of self-defense (such as judo or karate).
• From dictionary.com: a school or practice hall where karate, judo, or other martial arts are taught.
• From dictionary.cambridge.org: a place where people do karate, judo and other martial arts (=fighting sports)
• From collinsdictionary.com: a studio or room in which martial arts are taught
• From oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com: a hall or school where judo or other similar martial arts (= fighting sports) are practised
• From yourdictionary.com: a studio or room in which martial arts are taught; a school for training in Japanese arts of self-defense, such as judo and karate.

Not a lot of love for Jujitsu, Sumo, or Aikido, I see...

Some of these mention that this is "American English", and almost all reference that it is borrowed from Japanese (if they have an etymology entry).

As a comparison, none of these dictionaries (or others I looked at) have "dojang" or "dobok" as an entry. Every single one I checked had "dojo" and it was 50/50 if they had "gi". Now, I'm thinking that when I use the terms dojo or gi, I'm actually using English words (taken from Japanese) instead of using Japanese words.

Thoughts?

 

[Steve]

This question is related to a discussion argument I was in on Reddit. In discussing the usage of these terms outside of Japanese arts, I originally was thinking of these terms like "Xerox" for copiers or "Hoover" for vacuums. But then I decided to look it up. In every online dictionary I found, "dojo" was there. Half of them had "gi" (all of them had GI but only half of them had gi).

The definitions for "dojo" also were not style-specific, although any specific examples were Japanese arts. For example:

• From merriam-webster.com: a school for training in various arts of self-defense (such as judo or karate).
• From dictionary.com: a school or practice hall where karate, judo, or other martial arts are taught.
• From dictionary.cambridge.org: a place where people do karate, judo and other martial arts (=fighting sports)
• From collinsdictionary.com: a studio or room in which martial arts are taught
• From oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com: a hall or school where judo or other similar martial arts (= fighting sports) are practised
• From yourdictionary.com: a studio or room in which martial arts are taught; a school for training in Japanese arts of self-defense, such as judo and karate.

Not a lot of love for Jujitsu, Sumo, or Aikido, I see...

Some of these mention that this is "American English", and almost all reference that it is borrowed from Japanese (if they have an etymology entry).

As a comparison, none of these dictionaries (or others I looked at) have "dojang" or "dobok" as an entry. Every single one I checked had "dojo" and it was 50/50 if they had "gi". Now, I'm thinking that when I use the terms dojo or gi, I'm actually using English words (taken from Japanese) instead of using Japanese words.

Thoughts?

https://www.martialtalk.com/threads/what-is-the-most-effective.113245/post-1623906

This thread digs into very similar discussions, though in that thread the specific terms were related to jujutsu/jiu jitsu. But suffice to say, I'm inclined to agree with you.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Makes sense, and it goes both ways. The Japanese word we all know and love in the west, "anime," is a perfect example of this. While many European languages have cognates (because it did not originate in Japanese organically), it was taken directly from the English word "animation." It was orignally spelled in Romanji as "animeshon," and was later shortened to "anime." Although not organically a Japanese word, it is a Japanese word nonetheless.

I believe in English, we took the word "dogi" and shortened that to "gi," effectively making it an English word.

 

[skribs]

Makes sense, and it goes both ways. The Japanese word we all know and love in the west, "anime," is a perfect example of this. While many European languages have cognates (because it did not originate in Japanese organically), it was taken directly from the English word "animation." It was orignally spelled in Romanji as "animeshon," and was later shortened to "anime." Although not organically a Japanese word, it is a Japanese word nonetheless.

I believe in English, we took the word "dogi" and shortened that to "gi," effectively making it an English word.

And then ironically "anime" is now a word used in English to describe a specific style of animation.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'd consider them english words, with the caveat that, if I'm practicing an art like TKD or Aikido that has a specific uniform of their own, I wouldn't call it a gi-I'd use their specific word. So it's a word, but mostly referring to japanese arts that might use it (supported by your definitions specifically naming japanese arts that call it a gi.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I'd consider them english words, with the caveat that, if I'm practicing an art like TKD or Aikido that has a specific uniform of their own, I wouldn't call it a gi-I'd use their specific word. So it's a word, but mostly referring to japanese arts that might use it (supported by your definitions specifically naming japanese arts that call it a gi.

Here's another interesting one, since we're talking about clothing. The Japanese word for a men's suit is 背広, or "sebiro."

What is the etymology for sebiro? It comes from the Japanese pronunciation of "Savile Row," the place in London known the world over for the world's best bespoke suits. As we all know, not all suits come from Savile Row, very few of us could ever afford one from there. But that's the word they adopted. Much like how the OP was saying we use words like Xerox and Kleenex to refer to all similar items, regardless of brand.

 

[Steve]

I'd consider them english words, with the caveat that, if I'm practicing an art like TKD or Aikido that has a specific uniform of their own, I wouldn't call it a gi-I'd use their specific word. So it's a word, but mostly referring to japanese arts that might use it (supported by your definitions specifically naming japanese arts that call it a gi.

Unless it refers to the gi that is used in BJJ, which is often called a kimono... oh those Brazilians.

 

[Steve]

Here's another interesting one, since we're talking about clothing. The Japanese word for a men's suit is 背広, or "sebiro."

What is the etymology for sebiro? It comes from the Japanese pronunciation of "Savile Row," the place in London known the world over for the world's best bespoke suits. As we all know, not all suits come from Savile Row, very few of us could ever afford one from there. But that's the word they adopted. Much like how the OP was saying we use words like Xerox and Kleenex to refer to all similar items, regardless of brand.

Related trivia, in America at least, both Xerox and Kleenex have gone to great pains to protect their trademarks by reducing exactly this kind of generic dilution of their brand. 30 years ago, people xeroxed copies, but due to their efforts to protect their trademark, we photocopy things now. Similarly, people will ask for a tissue more often than a kleenex.

Band-aid still has a problem.

But last I heard, these companies all still own their trademarks. Unlike escalators, dumpsters, kerosene, and aspirin, which were all brand names that became synonymous with their product.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Makes sense, and it goes both ways. The Japanese word we all know and love in the west, "anime," is a perfect example of this. While many European languages have cognates (because it did not originate in Japanese organically), it was taken directly from the English word "animation." It was orignally spelled in Romanji as "animeshon," and was later shortened to "anime." Although not organically a Japanese word, it is a Japanese word nonetheless.

I believe in English, we took the word "dogi" and shortened that to "gi," effectively making it an English word.

It's Latin, actually. It means to breathe life into something (in the case of anime, moving pictures).

Just like animus, but in the positive direction.

 

[Gyakuto]

Unless it refers to the gi that is used in BJJ, which is often called a kimono... oh those Brazilians.

Kimono literally mean ‘clothes thing’ or ‘garment’

 

[Gyakuto]

Dogi or keikogi are used by the Japanese and never the word ‘gi’. I still have to refer to a dojo as a ‘martial arts hall’ or something similar to avoid confusion.

The main thing I here in English speaking martial arts is hyperforeinism: A hyperforeignism is a type of qualitative hypercorrection that involves speakers misidentifying the distribution of a pattern found in loanwords and extending it to other environments, including words and phrases not borrowed from the language that the pattern derives from.

Over the weekend I heard many people say ’dow-jow’. Having said that, it can go the other way….

 

[Hot Lunch]

It's Latin, actually. It means to breathe life into something (in the case of anime, moving pictures).

Just like animus, but in the positive direction.

If you go back that far, yes. But the Japanese did not take it directly from Latin. They took it directly from English.

 

[Oily Dragon]

If you go back that far, yes. But the Japanese did not take it directly from Latin. They took it directly from English.

I lied, it's actually Greek. What you are describing is gairaigo, Japanese loanwords, most of which are constructed from modern English.

But the "a" in anime is more of a global, universal linguistic element. Practically all languages contain an "aa" phonetic associated with breathing, which is the root of the "a" in animation, anime, animus. There are examples as old as Sanskrit.

All languages steal from older ones, English is especially notorious for bastardizing other languages, a common side effect of imperialist nations.

Japan borrowed the entire Chinese writing system, and have almost successfully wiped out the indigenous Okinawan languages.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I lied, it's actually Greek.

Is it? The wiki says it's from latin: The word "animation" stems from the Latin "animātiōn", stem of "animātiō", meaning "a bestowing of life".
Further search suggests that ane, the main root, is proto-indo-european, which was then morphed into similar words in sanskrit (aniti-breathes), greek (anemos-wind), and latin (anima-living breathing), among multiple others.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Is it? The wiki says it's from latin: The word "animation" stems from the Latin "animātiōn", stem of "animātiō", meaning "a bestowing of life".
Further search suggests that ane, the main root, is proto-indo-european, which was then morphed into similar words in sanskrit (aniti-breathes), greek (anemos-wind), and latin (anima-living breathing), among multiple others.

I had to edit my post to generalize it, but yeah it's a lot older than Greek.

But if you say "proto Indo-European" people will look at you funny, which I get a lot.

The key thing connecting all those words is the breath of life sound, "aa". That stuff is roughly 5,000 year old human language.

 

[Hot Lunch]

All languages steal from older ones, English is especially notorious for bastardizing other languages, a common side effect of imperialist nations.

It's fairly common - and makes perfectly good sense - for a language to borrow words from other languages, when their own language does not have its own word for a particular thing. For example, men's suits were invented in the UK, so it would have been impossible for the Japanese to have their own organic word for it - hence, why they had to borrow "Savile Row" from English to get "sebiro."

As for English, the Latin influence on it wasn't completely voluntary. The Norman conquest of the Anglo-Saxons forced Latin influence through Norman French. Otherwise, English might have more mutual intelligibility with Frisian and Dutch had this never happened.

 

[punisher73]

Languages are flexible and words are only verbal constructs to give meaning to an idea that is being conveyed. We add words all the time to our language, as well as change meanings of words. The point of language is communication, if you use a word that is readily recognized to convey that idea, it is incorporated into the language. What is a "hoodie"? Today people know that it means a hooded sweatshirt. It came in as a slang term and is now an accepted word to refer to that item. What is a "thong"? When I was a kid it referred to a specific type of flip flops, now it refers to a type of underwear.

Food is the easiest example of how many foreign words we have incorporated into the English language: Spaghetti, Taco, Burrito, Pizza, Sushi, Ramen (the list could go on).

If you say any of these "foreign words", people know exactly what you are talking about.

Same with the word, "dojo". Through the popularity of the martials arts in media, most people would know if you say "dojo" that you mean some type of martial arts school.

So, I would agree that they are a part of the English language now (at least in the USA, can't speak for other English speaking countries).

 

[Oily Dragon]

It's fairly common - and makes perfectly good sense - for a language to borrow words from other languages, when their own language does not have its own word for a particular thing. For example, men's suits were invented in the UK, so it would have been impossible for the Japanese to have their own organic word for it - hence, why they had to borrow "Savile Row" from English to get "sebiro."

As for English, the Latin influence on it wasn't completely voluntary. The Norman conquest of the Anglo-Saxons forced Latin influence through Norman French. Otherwise, English might have more mutual intelligibility with Frisian and Dutch had this never happened.

Japanese language loanwords are a very sensitive subject here in the US.

"Besuboro" and "Amerikanfuttuburo" are how the gairaigo pronunciation of baseball and football work, native Japanese speakers would know exactly what I meant, but here in the US most Americans, even Japanese Americans, would get probably get offended, not realizing how Japanese roughly incorporates English.

Important stuff if you travel to Japan. Like knowing how to find arukoru.

 

[Hot Lunch]

The definitions for "dojo" also were not style-specific, although any specific examples were Japanese arts. For example:

• From merriam-webster.com: a school for training in various arts of self-defense (such as judo or karate).
• From dictionary.com: a school or practice hall where karate, judo, or other martial arts are taught.
• From dictionary.cambridge.org: a place where people do karate, judo and other martial arts (=fighting sports)
• From collinsdictionary.com: a studio or room in which martial arts are taught
• From oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com: a hall or school where judo or other similar martial arts (= fighting sports) are practised
• From yourdictionary.com: a studio or room in which martial arts are taught; a school for training in Japanese arts of self-defense, such as judo and karate.

The last definition here actually did specify Japanese, instead of merely mentioning Japanese arts as examples. Karate and judo are the Japanese martial arts most familiar to non-Japanese people, so I can understand why they're the most cited examples.

Not a lot of love for Jujitsu, Sumo, or Aikido, I see...

I don't think most people use the word "dojo" to include koryu arts. If we're walking down a strip mall, and we see a place where everyone is wearing a gi and they have a belt-ranking system, it's a "dojo" to us. I believe some krav maga schools have adopted a belt ranking system, and some even wear gis. So people will see this, and call it a "dojo."

 

[Steve]

I had to edit my post to generalize it, but yeah it's a lot older than Greek.

But if you say "proto Indo-European" people will look at you funny, which I get a lot.

The key thing connecting all those words is the breath of life sound, "aa". That stuff is roughly 5,000 year old human language.

I thought the e and the o sounds were the only real vowels used in Proto indo European language? There was an a vowel sound? Hmm. Been a minute (more like 30 years) since I’ve read up in it, so likely we’ve learned more about it.