Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

[Steve]

I think this might be the basis of any disagreement here - it's about the definition of "martial art". I'm okay with this statement - it just means you and I include different things in that category. What would you call an activity that is almost (by this definition) a martial art, but is not at all about developing fighting skill (though it may use the movements once meant for that purpose)?

Exercise.

 

[caped crusader]

Trauma

severe and lasting emotional shock and pain caused by an extremely upsetting experience, or a case of such shock happening:

killing a person fighting?

 

[Hanzou]

It is not an either/or argument @hoshin1600 is making. It is simply a 'part of the whole' statement being made.

Why people refuse to believe that both can be included in a comprehensive program is beyond me.
Lazy I guess.

Okay, what would be the point of a "comprehensive program" that revolves around techniques that can hurt, maim, or kill another person? Yeah, I get in excellent shape rolling in BJJ. That improved stamina allows me to grapple longer, which in turn allows me more time to perform a lock or a strangle on my opponent. What's more, my improved stamina would help me survive in an actual self defense situation.

Really people, this isn't that hard. I mean what do you think the term Martial Art means?

 

[Steve]

severe and lasting emotional shock and pain caused by an extremely upsetting experience, or a case of such shock happening:

killing a person fighting?

Sure, that's one possible source of trauma.

 

[dvcochran]

Okay, what would be the point of a "comprehensive program" that revolves around techniques that can hurt, maim, or kill another person? Yeah, I get in excellent shape rolling in BJJ. That improved stamina allows me to grapple longer, which in turn allows me more time to perform a lock or a strangle on my opponent. What's more, my improved stamina would help me survive in an actual self defense situation.

Really people, this isn't that hard. I mean what do you think the term Martial Art means?

I fully agree and have stated such many times.
My question is why and what are you trying to separate? What do you want to leave out? It all works together. It is all part of a good, comprehensive program. It is all Martial Arts.

 

[caped crusader]

what are you trying to separate?

just my opinion but i think maybe he means more modern systems that are trained in Gyms and Fight clubs such as MMA style training.
They are only concerned with fighting skills and winning a fight. No philosophy about this master and that master.
Arm bar, choke..punch his face in..win ...simple as that so yeah i understand his point.
Listen when i was boxing as a young lad i only cared about the above. winning.

 

[caped crusader]

without starting a new thread i will just say too... how much respect should you show a Master or so called Grand Master?
I have never been into this *** kissing you see in some Dojos.
Master has always right and knows everything. A lot of Japanese now train in MMA type training. I think all this mystic Master BS is dying out. It´s about what you can really do.
Also physical fitness is just as important as skill. magical dreaming from the dark ages won´t cut it now. Look at Bruce Lee he was all about staminia and a high degree of fitness.

 

[Alan0354]

without starting a new thread i will just say too... how much respect should you show a Master or so called Grand Master?
I have never been into this *** kissing you see in some Dojos.
Master has always right and knows everything. A lot of Japanese now train in MMA type training. I think all this mystic Master BS is dying out. It´s about what you can really do.
Also physical fitness is just as important as skill. magical dreaming from the dark ages won´t cut it now. Look at Bruce Lee he was all about staminia and a high degree of fitness.

YES!!!

All the "secret" skill and moves don't mean a thing if you don't have the power and the conditioning. Strength is just as important as skill and techniques. I've seen a famous master in TKD, his technique is very good for sure, but he is not strong from looking at him in the gym doing weights. If he has to fight with a strong guy that has not done any training, I won't bet on he can win. If he cannot drop the guy on the first kick or punch, he might be in for a big surprised. If the guy gets hold of him after withstanding the first strike, he might be wrestled down, distant will be too close for any effective strike and there is no way he can out muscle the strong guy.

Fitness, strength and conditioning is every bit as important. That's the reason I do 50:50 in my exercise regiment. 1/2 the time on strength and half divide between kick boxing and stick fight. I am training at home, I am close to 69, part of the weight exercise are 20 pushup wearing 60lbs weight jackets with feet on the chair for 5 sets( less reps on the last two sets), bicep curls of 40lbs dumbbells, squat with 60lbs jackets and 40lbs dumbbell on each hand etc. as my weekly regiment. I treat my kick boxing and stick fight as aerobics, I hate running!!!

 

[caped crusader]

YES!!!

All the "secret" skill and moves don't mean a thing if you don't have the power and the conditioning. Strength is just as important as skill and techniques. I've seen a famous master in TKD, his technique is very good for sure, but he is not strong from looking at him in the gym doing weights. If he has to fight with a strong guy that has not done any training, I won't bet on he can win. If he cannot drop the guy on the first kick or punch, he might be in for a big surprised. If the guy gets hold of him after withstanding the first strike, he might be wrestled down, distant will be too close for any effective strike and there is no way he can out muscle the strong guy.

Fitness, strength and conditioning is every bit as important. That's the reason I do 50:50 in my exercise regiment. 1/2 the time on strength and half divide between kick boxing and stick fight. I am training at home, I am close to 69, part of the weight exercise are 20 pushup wearing 60lbs weight jackets with feet on the chair for 5 sets( less reps on the last two sets), bicep curls of 40lbs dumbbells, squat with 60lbs jackets and 40lbs dumbbell on each hand etc. as my weekly regiment. I treat my kick boxing and stick fight as aerobics, I hate running!!!

Yup Bruce Lee was ahead of his time not only in his system but also diet & weight training.
He really loved reading about Bodybuilding,diet , training.
I mean you have to have a strong foundation & be able to fight without gassing out.
you are doing a great workout Alan.

 

[caped crusader]

@ Alan do you know this guy? some radical ideas but might be useful as we get older. he is also of the opinion humans never needed overhead presses, which of course have blown out a few shoulders in pros like Frank zane. I now just do side,rear laterals with Dumbbells. Rear delts trained also with band face pulls. Some things he says i agree with some things not so much but always good to look at the big picture. He was actually trained by Bill pearl(in the beginning) who i spoke to in 2005, 3 times on the phone. Great guy. Ex US Navy man.

 

[Alan0354]

Yup Bruce Lee was ahead of his time not only in his system but also diet & weight training.
He really loved reading about Bodybuilding,diet , training.
I mean you have to have a strong foundation & be able to fight without gassing out.
you are doing a great workout Alan.

Did Bruce Lee whooped those so called "masters" butt!!! I was in Hong Kong ( where I was from) till Bruce died, we had a lot of news about Bruce Lee. The MA society HATED him.

Funny they all quiet as mouse when Lee was alive, but after he died, they all came out and said they can beat him!!!

 

[caped crusader]

side note: i mention Bill Pearl as he was a very good wrestler. A Grappler.

 

[caped crusader]

Did Bruce Lee whooped those so called "masters" butt!!! I was in Hong Kong ( where I was from) till Bruce died, we had a lot of news about Bruce Lee. The MA society HATED him.

Funny they all quiet as mouse when Lee was alive, but after he died, they all came out and said they can beat him!!!

OK Legends are built sometimes bigger than they were but there is no doubt about his ideas being very advanced for that time. I always liked his idea of taking what is useful to you. nothing carved in stone. Train your body & mind. be fit. was no fool but also a clever man in that he made his films and promoted himself.

 

[drop bear]

If someone isn't trying to learn to fight, then them not fighting is not relevant to their pursuit. If someone wants to learn to mix ingredients (not necessarily in any way that works for cooking) then whether those ingredients or their proportions work in cooking or not isn't relevant.

It still might be relevant. Competition martial artists might still be superior in developing this non fighting skill.


So this

"I believe a lot of what's in Aikido was really not intended for direct use. It teaches control and movement that can be applied to almost any technique (which works best, IMO, with a base of some functional techniques under it). Problem is I don't think that's how a lot of practitioners - even instructors - see it."

Might be developed better through competition.

 

[caped crusader]

Might be developed better through competition.

there is Tomiki Aikido which is in my opinion not a bad thing.

"I believe a lot of what's in Aikido was really not intended for direct use.
definetly not for direct use. If you want a system with sabaki that is realistic, with useful techniques ..Wado Ryu. shindo yoshin Ryu sabaki & locks, strikes.

look at the very short, sharp sabaki.

 

[Buka]

Billy Blanks... my wife did this when it was popular in the Gym. She kept insisting it was a real martial arts... bless her

I guarantee you, with one hundred percent certainty, she was not told that by Billy.

 

[caped crusader]

I guarantee you, with one hundred percent certainty, she was not told that by Billy.

It was a Hot iron, womans training group sort of guy who i know from the fitness circuit... a BI man. met him once where i worked..was enough.
Ironically his courses were full of women.

 

[Buka]

It was a Hot iron, womans training group sort of guy who i know from the fitness circuit... a BI man. met him once where i worked..was enough.
Ironically his courses were full of women.

I don't know what a "BI man" means.

 

[caped crusader]

I don't know what a "BI man" means.

that´s good.

 

[caped crusader]

For the Aikido Buffs... Tomiki i believe was a modern thinker like Kano. Notice the throws after the 14 min mark.