Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

[Oily Dragon]

Dunno. ,

Like everybody else I read that in the mid 70s ....about the same time I started training Chinese martial arts. Seems to me that the sudden popularity of Pirsig's book and the Asian martial arts back then reflected our culture. How much lasting influence that book had is an open question.

Heck, how much of that book ...or Asian martial arts the average Joe even understood is an open question.



I mean seriously, how many young "seekers" back in the 70s actually understood what Pirsig's book or the martial arts were really about?

Heck, I sure didn't!

...

Don't know, I've never read it. I did read the one on archery. It's a page turner. Turtles all the way down.

Zen kensei Niten Doraku had a whole battleship named after him. Not many martial artists can claim the same.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I've stated my opinions on Aikido several times over the years, I'm not interested in repeating it again.
My point however still stands. The opinion that competitive MA is better than others is only a bias toward the presupposition that fighting is the only goal of martial arts. We know this is not true.

See? Niten Doraku wins again.

 

[hoshin1600]

Zen and the art of archery.
Not really about zen, not really about motorcycles either.

 

[Steve]

I dont understand what you mean by creating a void. But here is an example of what I mean.
My 70 year old aunt practices and teaches Taichi. She started when she was in her 50s. She has no, nor has she ever had any interest in fighting. Tai chi is a recognized martial art.
It is absolutely impossible to convince her, that her art has NO Value because she can't fight. That argument is preposterous. Values are not universal, they are expressed through the individual. values can be shared among a group, but that does not invalidate the values of others. And that is persicly what the "all about fighting" argument is trying to do. Hanzo is trying to invalidate other people's values and substitute his own. Partially out of ignorance, where those within his group share his values of competence of fighting so he thinks that's the ONLY view point and partially out of an immature and narcissistic attempt to put others down to increase his self perception of superiority.
Some people Value fighting and some people don't.
I'm pretty sure all the Koryu sword practitioners on this sight and around the world, are well aware that a gun is better in a fight than a sword. I'm also pretty sure they don't care because real combative fighting is not the point.

Tao chi, for most, is not a martial art, any more than Tae Bo is a martial art. There are some who allege it is, but they are few and even they admit that for most, the martial application is king gone.

It’s excellent exercise, though, particularly for older people.

 

[Steve]

For some people, it really isn’t. Sometimes, folks just like the discipline the process requires. Some just like the physicality. Some like the flow of it - a sort of moving meditation. And some really like the philosophy. And some like a combination of those things.

Which is why some don’t really care how good their training prepares them for a fight.

Yeah, but as we have discussed in the past, if you cook but don’t produce food, you aren’t really cooking. And any other benefits you might glean from the activity of developing the skill to cook will be lost because the activity you are engaging in is, ultimately, just pretend.

or look at it this way, if you pretend to cook and call it cooking, you are disrespecting the craft. You can toss dishes around all day long but there is no difference between that and what a child does with a pretend kitchen.

This is what martial arts without fighting is.

 

[Steve]

Zen and the art of archery.
Not really about zen, not really about motorcycles either.

Is zen a martial art?

 

[Steve]

This argument reminds me of an old consumer report, that tried to convince me that I should get rid of my corvette for a 1992 chevy Malibu. Because the corvette was not roomy, did not have good cargo space, poor gas mileage, did not seat a family of 4 and was 2x more expensive and thus was not worth the money.

Yeah that works but Only if your corvette didn’t function as a car.

 

[drop bear]

I dont understand what you mean by creating a void. But here is an example of what I mean.
My 70 year old aunt practices and teaches Taichi. She started when she was in her 50s. She has no, nor has she ever had any interest in fighting. Tai chi is a recognized martial art.
It is absolutely impossible to convince her, that her art has NO Value because she can't fight. That argument is preposterous. Values are not universal, they are expressed through the individual. values can be shared among a group, but that does not invalidate the values of others. And that is persicly what the "all about fighting" argument is trying to do. Hanzo is trying to invalidate other people's values and substitute his own. Partially out of ignorance, where those within his group share his values of competence of fighting so he thinks that's the ONLY view point and partially out of an immature and narcissistic attempt to put others down to increase his self perception of superiority.
Some people Value fighting and some people don't.
I'm pretty sure all the Koryu sword practitioners on this sight and around the world, are well aware that a gun is better in a fight than a sword. I'm also pretty sure they don't care because real combative fighting is not the point.

Yeah. But you haven't suggested what is the point. You have just illustrated what people either are not good at or don't want to do.

Which is not really a good endorsement for a superior martial artist.

Now I am not suggesting everyone has to be good or want to be good. But if someone wants to be good. We should be honest to them about the path that makes them good.

This isn't just fighting. This is anything.

So we have martial arts for fighting and martial arts for the other thing. What that thing is we have no idea but if martial arts isn't good for fighting then it must be good for the other thing.

It makes no sense and is a gigantic leap to a conclusion.

If martial arts is good for the other thing. It needs to base an argument on its own merits.

 

[drop bear]

For some people, it really isn’t. Sometimes, folks just like the discipline the process requires. Some just like the physicality. Some like the flow of it - a sort of moving meditation. And some really like the philosophy. And some like a combination of those things.

Which is why some don’t really care how good their training prepares them for a fight.

Kind of what hanzou said. Kind of not.

It might be more effective to achieve those aims if the person competes. It might not.

But they don't cancel each other out. We are all kind of assuming they do.

And it doesn't matter what people like. If say I wanted to be an Aikido black belt. There are some non negotiable requirements that would go in to making me one.

I can't just do what I like. It is a different conversation

 

[Steve]

Kind of what hanzou said. Kind of not.

It might be more effective to achieve those aims if the person competes. It might not.

But they don't cancel each other out. We are all kind of assuming they do.

And it doesn't matter what people like. If say I wanted to be an Aikido black belt. There are some non negotiable requirements that would go in to making me one.

I can't just do what I like. It is a different conversation

I’m a black belt in aikido. It’s just a different kind of aikido which focuses on drinking good scotch. And I’m really good at it. You might say I need to do some aikido, but that’s not why I train. I train for the scotch.

I’m going to open a school when I retire to teach aikido to people who want to be good at aikido without doing aikido.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Zen and the art of archery.
Not really about zen, not really about motorcycles either.

Written by a German, no less.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Is zen a martial art?

That depends on what's troubling you.

 

[drop bear]

I’m a black belt in aikido. It’s just a different kind of aikido which focuses on drinking good scotch. And I’m really good at it. You might say I need to do some aikido, but that’s not why I train. I train for the scotch.

I’m going to open a school when I retire to teach aikido to people who want to be good at aikido without doing aikido.

Exactly.

 

[_Simon_]

Okay, but if you're refining your writing style, your aim is to be a better writer, regardless of what your goal is. The very fact that you're spending time improving a skill means that your aim is to improve THAT skill.

Now, what is my aim if I'm in Japanese pajamas learning how to break someone's wrist? You can slap all the fancy/enlightened/religious junk you want to that practice, but the bottom line is that your aim is to become very good at snapping someone's wrist, and causing harm to that person. When I'm rolling around on a mat perfecting a triangle choke, my aim isn't to become the next Rickson Gracie or Gordon Ryan, my aim is to become proficient at choking someone unconscious (maybe even to death) with my legs.

Why are we playing these silly games? You're learning a martial art because you want to become proficient at fighting. You can apply fighting to a multitude or activities, from self defense, to competition, to confidence building, to discipline, but it ALL revolves around fighting. If you wanted to become a better person or get in shape via a nonviolent activity, you'd be doing calligraphy or ballet. You wouldn't be learning how to literally hurt, maim or kill people.

I see what you're saying, but again like I said, I think it's important to note the context of means and end. MA does involve what we could call fighting (to varying degrees or levels). It does. But then you're saying that becoming a better fighter is the sole intention. You can use the template of "fighting" for other purposes, and improving your fighting is the vehicle or means for achieving those OTHER ends (I wouldn't even call them ends/goals).

Yes, you are getting better at fighting as an interim intention, but what I'm saying is that it doesn't have to be the end goal or whole entire reason you're doing it. Now I'm by no means saying oh martial arts is therefore some blank canvas you can just insert anything into, it is very specifically "thing", but like the writing example, it can moreso be the "medium" for exploring other realms of life. Fighting is what you do, getting better at the fighting (within the context of the art and what that actually means) happens, and this getting better at it doesn't have to be the sole intention. Do you sort of see what I'm getting at it? You are improving that skill, but you are not improving that skill in order to improve that skill (although that is a thing that is definitely focused on).

You seem to just dismiss this is as some pseudo-religious yap which is interesting. But I'm not saying that approach is better; those just wanting it to be solely about improving fighting ability is totally 100% fine.

And I'm by no means denying that it involves fighting, of course it does and yes it does all revolve around that. But how it's contextually conceived of and held matters. I'm saying it's a tool and not the end itself, see below for more rambling haha.

no but they are writing. The problem is that not all MA does involve fighting. And where it doesn’t take the development of fighting skill seriously, any other ancillary benefits will be undermined because the activity itself lacks integrity.

Yeah and I guess it's very much art-specific as to what that fighting means. Capoeira fighting is different to say kickboxing fighting, yet there is an underlying similarity in the practice of what "fighting" might entail. Not in exact detail though.

But it being a martial art, has to be related to fighting or "martial" activities in some degree or another, you would think. But I feel this would be a whole other topic haha what does fighting mean, are there things that are fighting-related (technique practice technically is not "fighting", but is related to and can help improve it etc etc etc).

But I understand what you're saying. It's a complex topic and I don't really have any firm answers, because then it comes down to having an ultimate definition of what fighting means, AND what it means to develop fighting skill (and whether that is purely a contextual thing within the art or if you mean legitimately defending oneself), AND whether the ancillary benefits mean absolutely zilch because you weren't reeeally improving 'proper' fighting skills therefore it lacks integrity... there's alot here haha.

I guess my point is that, like writing, tea ceremony, whatever, there's richness in the process that can be incredibly rewarding, that isn't about a linear, measurable means to an end format. Sometimes it doesn't have to be do activity A to improve activity A. But do activity A as a tool of exploration, and improving activity A allows and opens up more depth and understanding for other stuff. Developing and improving a skill yes, working towards that yes, the sole end goal that this is ALL about? Not necessarily...

 

[_Simon_]

Yeah, but as we have discussed in the past, if you cook but don’t produce food, you aren’t really cooking. And any other benefits you might glean from the activity of developing the skill to cook will be lost because the activity you are engaging in is, ultimately, just pretend.

or look at it this way, if you pretend to cook and call it cooking, you are disrespecting the craft. You can toss dishes around all day long but there is no difference between that and what a child does with a pretend kitchen.

This is what martial arts without fighting is.

Ehh... I actually don't think the analogy holds up... cooking without producing food is obviously not cooking. But it sounds like some are making the argument that if your sole goal is to only make better food, that it's not really cooking.

You do cook to cook better (or become a better cook), but perhaps the sole end for you is not that (yet is of course still the process. Getting better is integral). Perhaps you're bettering your cooking as an expression of love to a dear one and wanting to take care of them, you're still producing food, and you're still aiming at getting better, but the "being a better cook" is not really what it's ALL about.

And it gets too tricky here because we all seem to have different definitions of what "fighting" means, and some equate that with ability to defend oneself on "dah streetz", some would say you're improving your fighting ability within the context of your martial art (its ruleset, skillset, strengths etc)... there are so many things I feel like we're confusing and overlapping. But ah well hopefully we can still share respectfully and in a civil way.

 

[Hanzou]

I see what you're saying, but again like I said, I think it's important to note the context of means and end. MA does involve what we could call fighting (to varying degrees or levels). It does. But then you're saying that becoming a better fighter is the sole intention. You can use the template of "fighting" for other purposes, and improving your fighting is the vehicle or means for achieving those OTHER ends (I wouldn't even call them ends/goals).

Yes, you are getting better at fighting as an interim intention, but what I'm saying is that it doesn't have to be the end goal or whole entire reason you're doing it. Now I'm by no means saying oh martial arts is therefore some blank canvas you can just insert anything into, it is very specifically "thing", but like the writing example, it can moreso be the "medium" for exploring other realms of life. Fighting is what you do, getting better at the fighting (within the context of the art and what that actually means) happens, and this getting better at it doesn't have to be the sole intention. Do you sort of see what I'm getting at it? You are improving that skill, but you are not improving that skill in order to improve that skill (although that is a thing that is definitely focused on).

Any devotion to a physical discipline can bleed into other aspects of your life. Professional Basketball players are highly disciplined, incredible athletes, and have to conduct themselves in a certain manner in order to be better members of a team. Heck, Phil Jackson even incorporated Zen meditation and philosophy into his basketball coaching.

However, it still all revolved around putting a ball through a hoop.

I have no doubt that a 60 year old woman starting Aikido isn't looking to run the streets and snap the wrists of thugs and criminals, or walk into a ring and take down a MMA fighter. However, we would be fooling ourselves to believe that Aikido teaching her how to snap someone's wrist isn't a major reason why she's on that mat.

You seem to just dismiss this is as some pseudo-religious yap which is interesting. But I'm not saying that approach is better; those just wanting it to be solely about improving fighting ability is totally 100% fine.

I do, because there's inherent hypocrisy involved. Take Aikido for example; I've seen people claim on one hand that it isn't about fighting ability or violence. However at the same time they like to wax nostalgic about their founders supposed fighting prowess. I also remember several posters telling me that Aikido schools don't advertise themselves as self defense schools. I then proceeded to post multiple links to Aikido schools doing exactly that.

Obviously Aikido isn't the only culprit in this, it's rampant throughout nearly all martial arts, including BJJ. Only cults and religion breed that level of illogic and cognitive dissonance. I would say though that BJJ as a whole doesn't hide what it actually is with unnecessary layers of fluff and silliness.

For now......

 

[caped crusader]

For some people, it really isn’t. Sometimes, folks just like the discipline the process requires. Some just like the physicality. Some like the flow of it - a sort of moving meditation. And some really like the philosophy. And some like a combination of those things.

Which is why some don’t really care how good their training prepares them for a fight.

Yeah ...but it's annoying when they then try and convince us that it's of any use outside. This is the root of the problem in most cases, on here and any other forums.
If people want to do Meditation, go with the flow, enjoy the Tradition as in aikido..Tai chi, then do it but just don't try and tell us it's like Tai Boxing or full contact Systems.

 

[hoshin1600]

Yeah. But you haven't suggested what is the point. You have just illustrated what people either are not good at or don't want to do.

Which is not really a good endorsement for a superior martial artist.

Now I am not suggesting everyone has to be good or want to be good. But if someone wants to be good. We should be honest to them about the path that makes them good.

This isn't just fighting. This is anything.

So we have martial arts for fighting and martial arts for the other thing. What that thing is we have no idea but if martial arts isn't good for fighting then it must be good for the other thing.

It makes no sense and is a gigantic leap to a conclusion.

If martial arts is good for the other thing. It needs to base an argument on its own merits.

This I agree with 100 %.

 

[caped crusader]

Aikido schools don't advertise themselves as self defense schools. I then proceeded to post multiple links to Aikido schools doing exactly that.

I have trained somewhat in Aikido years ago & i honestly still despair when people go on about their founder O`sensei like he was a God with magical powers. Really teaching "self Defence" which is just not going to work. I have also met people in these circles who were honest and said it was just for some training, history and tradition. They knew it was just not for street situations. Still you will get people who still think it´s going to be like Seagal flipping people over with his Kote Gaeshi throws in bars.
I trained for a time with a Master of Iwama Ryu who was in Iwama training. Even he said you´re better off with a hard martial art like karate, was not a dreamer and was also a high ranking Judoka. so no fool !

 

[drop bear]

So. Say we wanted to move away from fighting and look at mental health.

There is still an argument for competitive martial arts.

MMA and Yoga May Offer Benefits as PTSD Treatment

MMA, Yoga, and PTSD

www.psychologytoday.com