Anyone have any Endust?

[Edmund BlackAdder]

This place is as busy as the saloon in a Ghost Town.

Anyone still here who studies under SKH?

Heard he either was going to Japan, or had gone to Japan. Any News?

 

[lalom]

Yes, Mr. Hayes has been on a trip to Japan of which I believe he has returned. He is scheduled to return on the 15th of May. More information about his trip can be found at http://www.skhquest.com/Articles/WordsFromAnShu.aspx

 

[Don Roley]

I have heard of his visit to the Honbu dojo. There seems to be some differences in what other people in Japan are saying about it and what Hayes is saying. I do not go to Sunday training myself. I reserve saying anything here until I check some stuff. But there may be a lot more to the story than the side that Hayes is presenting to the world.

 

[Deaf]

althought it really doesn't matter... however I would love to hear what some of those differences are especially since his article was a bit... egoistical!

 

[Don Roley]

althought it really doesn't matter... however I would love to hear what some of those differences are especially since his article was a bit... egoistical!

I really don't look forward to getting into the middle of things by being the bearer of unpleasant news.... But I just checked something and it made my jaw hit the floor.

I have been told that Hatsumi is really, really pissed off about the whole thing of Hayes using the name "Kukishinden ryu" in some teaching certificates and such he gives out. It is just a matter of course in Japanese culture that you do not do that type of thing without the soke's permission. It is something you don't even bother to lay out because it is just common sense. But then again, so is not coming to class drunk and we know that has happened. It is just not done in Japanese martial arts to do that type of thing, and yet Hayes did it, continues to do it and many people are confused by the issue.

I need to stress that Hatsumi never used the term ?? (Hamon- to throw out, ban) in relation to Hayes. Hatsumi has often said he does not need to ban people because the bad ones all fade away. In fact, I think he set things up so that he does not have the power to toss anyone out and it requires ten people of tenth dan to cause someone to be booted.

But, Hatsumi did get mad and ordered that Hayes tablet in the tenth dan board be taken down.

It may not sound like a lot, but this is something in my Japan experience is worse than being slapped in public would be for Americans. I went and saw it for myself. I looked for Hayes' tablet and it was no longer there. Hayes no longer stands next to other people who are considered the highest in the Bujinkan.

Hayes has not been thrown out. His rank has not been revoked. But this very public display of a withdrawing of support by his teacher is much worse IMO in a Japanese context than those acts would be in an American one. And it is all over the use of the Kukishinden ryu name without permission- a fact that Hatsumi has been aware of for a long time.

So you can see how I just can't concieve of Hayes being treated as friendly as he seems to be making it sound. The tablet has been taken down. You can search for it yourself. You can ask Hatsumi if you want about it. I don't have much of a stake in the matter.

 

[mrhnau]

I really don't look forward to getting into the middle of things by being the bearer of unpleasant news.... But I just checked something and it made my jaw hit the floor.

I have been told that Hatsumi is really, really pissed off about the whole thing of Hayes using the name "Kukishinden ryu" in some teaching certificates and such he gives out. It is just a matter of course in Japanese culture that you do not do that type of thing without the soke's permission. It is something you don't even bother to lay out because it is just common sense. But then again, so is not coming to class drunk and we know that has happened. It is just not done in Japanese martial arts to do that type of thing, and yet Hayes did it, continues to do it and many people are confused by the issue.

I need to stress that Hatsumi never used the term ?? (Hamon- to throw out, ban) in relation to Hayes. Hatsumi has often said he does not need to ban people because the bad ones all fade away. In fact, I think he set things up so that he does not have the power to toss anyone out and it requires ten people of tenth dan to cause someone to be booted.

But, Hatsumi did get mad and ordered that Hayes tablet in the tenth dan board be taken down.

It may not sound like a lot, but this is something in my Japan experience is worse than being slapped in public would be for Americans. I went and saw it for myself. I looked for Hayes' tablet and it was no longer there. Hayes no longer stands next to other people who are considered the highest in the Bujinkan.

Hayes has not been thrown out. His rank has not been revoked. But this very public display of a withdrawing of support by his teacher is much worse IMO in a Japanese context than those acts would be in an American one. And it is all over the use of the Kukishinden ryu name without permission- a fact that Hatsumi has been aware of for a long time.

So you can see how I just can't concieve of Hayes being treated as friendly as he seems to be making it sound. The tablet has been taken down. You can search for it yourself. You can ask Hatsumi if you want about it. I don't have much of a stake in the matter.

wow... is there any kind of precedent for this? Been done before? If so, under what circumstances?

Interesting stuff!

 

[Deaf]

This is also being mentioned by Phil Legare in his "public forum" as well. ( regarding SKH's tablet being taking down etc. )

http://shinkentaijutsu.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=256&highlight=

Interesting spin of things I suppose, is that Mr. Legare did say that Hayes is no longer recognized as a judan.

 

[lalom]

So it's official then, from Hatsumi Sensei, that Mr. Hayes has been removed from the Bujinkan and his rank has been revoked. This was told directly to Phillip Legare by Soke himself according to that post.

 

[eyebeams]

Did SKH ever receive other forms of licensing (aside from his belts)?

 

[mrhnau]

So it's official then, from Hatsumi Sensei, that Mr. Hayes has been removed from the Bujinkan and his rank has been revoked. This was told directly to Phillip Legare by Soke himself according to that post.

The way I've read it, he is not "removed" from the Bujinkan, just no longer recognized as judan. I assume being "removed" would imply that he could no longer train w/ Hatsumi? Was this implied or stated?

I'm no expert on Quest, TSD, whatever name... I have seen that he sells lessons for Gyokko ryu at least. So, I'm wondering... why was the topic of kukishiden ryu brought up, but not the others? Was this the only one on certificates?

Sorry if the question seems a bit naive, I'm kind of clueless as to the proceedings of SKH et al...

 

[Tengu6]

The way I've read it, he is not "removed" from the Bujinkan, just no longer recognized as judan. I assume being "removed" would imply that he could no longer train w/ Hatsumi? Was this implied or stated?

I'm no expert on Quest, TSD, whatever name... I have seen that he sells lessons for Gyokko ryu at least. So, I'm wondering... why was the topic of kukishiden ryu brought up, but not the others? Was this the only one on certificates?

Sorry if the question seems a bit naive, I'm kind of clueless as to the proceedings of SKH et al...

Well, the news originated from this quote on Phil Lagare's forum:

"On 14 May 2006, during Hombu training, Soke had Steven K. Hayes' name placard taken off the Bujinkan rank board. There was no ceremony or fanfare, he just had Joji take it down while people were training. I was training in my usual corner there under the kamidana and by that first rank board when Joji did it. Joji showed it to me and said Soke told him to take it down. Soke came up and said that SKH is no longer recognized as a judan in the Bujinkan. He is doing his own martial art and not a part of the Bujinkan anymore. There were a number of us who witnessed this event. Soke said that the Bujinkan does not need to expand anymore. We have enough good 15 dan who are training faithfully in the Bujinkan. Now is the time to refine and pair down what we already have.

I am putting this on the open part of our BB so anyone can see this, per Soke's wishes. "

So, according to those who were there, SKH is officially no longer in the Bujinkan. Interpret that however you want.

Markk Bush

 

[Don Roley]

So, according to those who were there, SKH is officially no longer in the Bujinkan.

That is not quite the way I heard it from a Japanese source. It was stressed to me that Hatsumi never used the term hamon which means to throw out. Hatsumi has never thrown anyone out AFAIK.

Let me put it like this, in Japan they tend to avoid rejecting someone or tossing them out. Instead they try to make things so uncomfortable that the person leaves on his own.

The only thing I can say is that Hatsumi ordered the tablet taken down. I confirmed that with my own eyes. Hayes could still be part of the Bujinkan, but Hatsumi's act is just one saying that he is no longer supporting what Hayes does in any way.

Now, any Japanese I work or deal with would be mortified at this. If their tablet had been taken down, they would probably apologize and correct their behavior or quit. Probably both. Maybe Hatsumi thinks that Hayes will do the same thing.

But the thing I want to stress is that the native speaker of Japanese who was involved in this stressed that the word hamon was not used and that Hayes has not been tossed out of the Bujinkan. Things may change. But do not be surprised if Hayes makes a single training session again in the future. He has not been tossed out, but he is not being supported by Hatsumi at all.

 

[George Kohler]

But the thing I want to stress is that the native speaker of Japanese who was involved in this stressed that the word hamon was not used and that Hayes has not been tossed out of the Bujinkan. Things may change. But do not be surprised if Hayes makes a single training session again in the future. He has not been tossed out, but he is not being supported by Hatsumi at all.

Maybe this needs to be stressed on other sites like Martial Arts Planet and E-Budo. Everybody at both places seems to think that this was a "Hamon."

 

[MJS]

Interesting thread. I'll start off by saying that I don't know much about BBT, so please forgive any misunderstandings on my part.

As for my questions, they are directed at Don, but anyone is free to answer.

Don, reading these posts, does this mean that while SKH may not have been kicked out, but does not have the support of Hatusmi, that he is no longer welcome to train with Hatsumi in Japan?

Manaka went out to begin his own path with Jinenkan. Does Hatsumi support what he did?

Mike

 

[Don Roley]

Don, reading these posts, does this mean that while SKH may not have been kicked out, but does not have the support of Hatusmi, that he is no longer welcome to train with Hatsumi in Japan?

Manaka went out to begin his own path with Jinenkan. Does Hatsumi support what he did?

Hatsumi has nothing to do with what Manaka is doing. There are a lot of things why Manaka finally chose to leave.

As for Hayes, I would change what you say from, "he is no longer welcome to train with Hatsumi in Japan" to "he would not find a very warm welcome if he trained in Japan."

Have you ever had a guest not leave when you wanted him to? You didn't tell him straight out to leave- at least not the first hour. You did not make him feel welcome, but did not toss him out the door. That is kind of the situation that Hayes has been in for a long time from what I have heard. People seem to think that because he trained in Japan that Hatsumi stood by and supported everything he did. That is not the case.

 

[MJS]

Hatsumi has nothing to do with what Manaka is doing. There are a lot of things why Manaka finally chose to leave.

Yes, I realize that. I guess where I was going with that was, both Manaka and Hayes seem to have taken their training with Hatsumi and eventually went out and did their own thing. Hatsumi removed the tablet of Hayes. Did he do the same for Manaka?

As for Hayes, I would change what you say from, "he is no longer welcome to train with Hatsumi in Japan" to "he would not find a very warm welcome if he trained in Japan."

Thanks for the clarification.

Have you ever had a guest not leave when you wanted him to? You didn't tell him straight out to leave- at least not the first hour. You did not make him feel welcome, but did not toss him out the door. That is kind of the situation that Hayes has been in for a long time from what I have heard. People seem to think that because he trained in Japan that Hatsumi stood by and supported everything he did. That is not the case.

LOL, yes, I've had more than a few times where I was in that position. Thanks again for clarifying.

Mike

 

[lalom]

Sounds pretty basic to me that Mr. Hayes has done essentially what Manaka and Tanemura did. They trained with Soke and, for whatever reason or whatever transpired, they decided to do their own thing. Different circumstances, same result. That is why I asked in another thread if the Kasumi-An (Hayes' organization) will be considered another X-Kan? Of course that topic can be addressed on the other thread I started.

 

[Deaf]

Sorry but no I don't agree with you. Hayes did NOT go the same route as Manaka and Tanemura. Both oManaka and Tanemura parted ways from Hatsumi for reasons none of us really know for sure nor should speculate about. However Manaka and Tanemura have FULL parted ways and started their own schools. Where as Hayes has NOT!

Hayes has made no attempt to part ways from the Bujinkan, still claims membership within the Bujinkan, still claims that his students can recieve Bujinkan rank and certificates and IMO, has done nothing but moved or refined things as he sees fit to help him make more money regardless of how disrespectful it looked towards Hatsumi Sensei.

So please do NOT compare Hayes to Manaka nor Tanemura!

 

[lalom]

Isn't this exactly what we've been talking about? The fact that Mr. Hayes' ties with the Bujinkan have been severed by Soke? Soke said it is "a separate art" now.

Same as Tanemura and Manaka. Different situations and ways of coming about - same result at the end. Agree or don't but that's how I see it.

 

[Don Roley]

Isn't this exactly what we've been talking about? The fact that Mr. Hayes' ties with the Bujinkan have been severed by Soke? Soke said it is "a separate art" now.

Same as Tanemura and Manaka. Different situations and ways of coming about - same result at the end. Agree or don't but that's how I see it.

Hatsumi is seeming to say that Hayes is in the same camp as them. But he did not use the term "Hamon" and instead is saying that for years he has not been a member of the Bujinkan. Thus there is no need to toss him out- he already is out. People just need to know that instead of thinking he is part of the Bujinkan.

Yeah, I know... he has showed up for training despite being not being a Bujinkan member. I am not quite sure how that works. In Japan, people are not big on public displays and a few people have gotten into training despite not being Bujinkan members. I hear that he still issues certificates, but I have not seen them myself. I am told that he has not been paying up for years. So I don't know how he could be giving out certificates and such.

But the native speaker clearly heard Hatsumi say that what Hayes is doing is not Bujinkan. He is not Bujinkan as far as Hatsumi is concerned. It is a seperate art. Toshindo is totally different.

But I have predicted that maybe Hayes will show up for training once again and people will be confused over the matter because they thought that this means that the doors will be closed to him.