Anyone To-Shin Do?

lalom

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Hello all,

Just wondering if this section of MT is still needed. Is anyone alive out there?

Are there any To-Shin Do practitioners here anymore?
 

Tengu6

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lalom said:
Hello all,

Just wondering if this section of MT is still needed. Is anyone alive out there?

Are there any To-Shin Do practitioners here anymore?


They have all gone to the Island!

Markk Bush
 

Edmund BlackAdder

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I doubt it. While there may be a few lurking, they aren't using the area. Since Hayes stuff isn't Japanese Ninjutsu, it might be best to move it out of the JMA area, or just dump it all into the General arts forum. Why waste the spot when it's not appreciated or used?
 

Don Roley

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From what I have heard, the presence of Toshindo practicioners on the internet is fading fast. I am in contact with someone who wants to jump from Toshindo to Bujinkan after the whole mess a few months ago and he seems to be far from the only one.

One thing that disturbs me is a story that there is an informal movement inside Toshindo from the top to urge students to not get involved in internet forums. The reason given seems to be something about all the nasty stories floating around involving Hayes.

I have yet to confirm this with multiple sources, but it would explain why there seems to be less and less Toshindo people posting.
 

ginshun

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We are not a To Shin Do school, but might be someday. My instructor is thinking about it, and will be going to Ohio to train with Hayes in the near future.
 
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lalom

lalom

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ginshun said:
We are not a To Shin Do school, but might be someday. My instructor is thinking about it, and will be going to Ohio to train with Hayes in the near future.

What art does your school train in currently? Can I ask?
 

ginshun

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lalom said:
What art does your school train in currently? Can I ask?

Taijutsu with a few other things thrown in. Not affiliated with any national or international organization at the moment, and my never be. Lineage goes back to Bussey and Hayes. More Bussey, so I don't know how people around here would view it. We are a small school (normally about 5 people at any given class), and my instructor does not teach martial arts as his main job.
 

stone_dragone

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Not currently Toshindo either, but I have been researching it as a possible future student (depending on location). Right now I teach karate and am approaching a crossroads regarding my teacher/student relation ship with my own instructors. Just another possibility for me...
 
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lalom

lalom

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stone_dragone said:
Not currently Toshindo either, but I have been researching it as a possible future student (depending on location). Right now I teach karate and am approaching a crossroads regarding my teacher/student relation ship with my own instructors. Just another possibility for me...

Any website I might look at for your dojo?
 

stone_dragone

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lalom said:
Any website I might look at for your dojo?

Sorry. No website. Most I have is a digital copy of my manual that is currently in revision.

I don't want my previous statement to be confused, btw...I still have a great relationship with my instructors, but I only see my primary teacher (whose opinion I value the highest) twice a year at the most. Just thought I'd clear that up...it looked suspect to me...
 

r erman

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I can only ever recall two To Shin Do people actively participating in discussion on the internet. One is Gary Arthur--who is relatively new to TSD and still seems to be going through a zealot phase--who continues to post, not realizing(or caring) about the 'PR' damage he does to his organization and teacher.

The other is(was) Michael Stinson who runs the Phoenix Quest center. He was a very impartial moderator at E-Budo for quite a while, and while he did, understandably, defend or curb defamatory posts against SKH(as have I), I can never remember him shoving his organization down others' throats or having an agenda other than discussion about taijutsu. He was often one of only a small handfull people that I considered voices of reason on e-budo. He hasn't posted in a couple of years, I assume, due to the increasing negativity towards Mr Hayes.

It seems to me the only other "TSD" people were distant-learning folks who really had little to offer in terms of discussion.

I can only respect people who have better things to do with their time than participate in negative discussions(as Takamatsu said: 'Gossips are purposeless men'). Honest discussion that impacts people's day to day lives doesn't fall under this, however. But I have a hard time believing that there is some concerted effort to keep To Shin Do students from what others are saying. Hayes has had a good policy of deflecting this stuff for years by simply ignoring it and giving the appearance of it being beneath him. However, much of the common debate about SKH has been discussed on quest-l before, where they had a pretty open memebership policy, as I recall.
 

Don Roley

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r erman said:
One is Gary Arthur--who is relatively new to TSD and still seems to be going through a zealot phase--who continues to post, not realizing(or caring) about the 'PR' damage he does to his organization and teacher.

Do you think someone should tell SKH? I'm serious. Gary Arthur was banned here after it was found he was posting under an account name of Gina Jordan. He just recently got banned from e-budo for getting everyone and the Genbukan mad at him for using terms like 'cults' when discussing the two orginizations. I think it will not be long before I see him on another forum posting again.

If I had a student portraying himself as a representative of me, I would like to know this type of thing. I know I have felt like slapping a few Bujinkan members that seem to want to bait the Genbukan or Jinenkan but I can't do anything about them. Hayes should be in a position to talk to those teaching in his name and let them know the damage they are doing.

But it would sound better if it came form someone like you who has never been on the other side of a debate with him. Every time it looks like there is a flame war invovling Toshindo, you can pretty much expect to find Gary Arthur there holding a match. I think Hayes should know this type of thing.
 
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lalom

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I don't think it matters as much as you hope it does. Mr. Roley, do you REALLY care that much about Mr. Hayes and his organization to warrant your post?
 

saru1968

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Don Roley said:
Do you think someone should tell SKH? I'm serious. Gary Arthur was banned here after it was found he was posting under an account name of Gina Jordan. He just recently got banned from e-budo for getting everyone and the Genbukan mad at him for using terms like 'cults' when discussing the two orginizations. I think it will not be long before I see him on another forum posting again.

If I had a student portraying himself as a representative of me, I would like to know this type of thing. I know I have felt like slapping a few Bujinkan members that seem to want to bait the Genbukan or Jinenkan but I can't do anything about them. Hayes should be in a position to talk to those teaching in his name and let them know the damage they are doing.

But it would sound better if it came form someone like you who has never been on the other side of a debate with him. Every time it looks like there is a flame war invovling Toshindo, you can pretty much expect to find Gary Arthur there holding a match. I think Hayes should know this type of thing.


You should see Gary's (Garths) posts over at MAP !


'However, much of the common debate about SKH has been discussed on quest-l before, where they had a pretty open memebership policy, as I recall.'


Err sorry, no i don't agree with that, any posts that in any way offer a less than positive light are not posted as the post are 'moderated' first.

I've challenged a few points over there and guess what in 19 post not one has made it onto the forum.

And none of my post were abusive, rude or otherwise just presented another point of view, have only one positive side is just not healthy.
 

r erman

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saru1968 said:
You should see Gary's (Garths) posts over at MAP !

Yes, Gary is still very much active on that board...

Err sorry, no i don't agree with that, any posts that in any way offer a less than positive light are not posted as the post are 'moderated' first.

I've challenged a few points over there and guess what in 19 post not one has made it onto the forum.

And none of my post were abusive, rude or otherwise just presented another point of view, have only one positive side is just not healthy.

Well, I have no reason to doubt you, but that is pretty hard to cross-check;)

What I do remember is that there were posts ranging from Jeff Mueller to Ralph Severe...neither of whom has anything to do with To Shin Do.

As far as notifying SKH, I've given it thought, but I don't feel that it would do any good. I simply don't believe that anyone from Dayton would take the time to sift through multiple forums to find Garth's posts. I also don't feel comfortable assuming the role of 'hall monitor'.

What is unfortunate is that many of the agenda trolls that have a beef with Hayes(and yes there are a lot of people--especially on MAP--that delight in attacking him just to get Gary's goad it sometimes seems) look to his silence as affirmation that he supports Gary's antics, when in reality I think if Hayes wanted an online 'mouthpiece' he would find someone much better suited to the task--someone who is very persuasive, not someone who comes off as little more than sycophant.

Now I've bent my personal rules about staying out of these kinds of discussions quite enough over the past two days--back to lurking in the cyber shadows.
 

MrFunnieman

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As a former practitioner and instructor I have felt compelled to "defend" Mr. Hayes and the To-Shin Do association, but lately I have lost heart. I haven't trained or seen anyone from Dayton in four years so really I am out of the loop and content to stay there. The way Hayes is handling the "latest internet rumors" totally disgusts me. I am not surprised, but if there was an iota of respect in my heart for him it has been swept away.

Really I think the Ninjutsu forum has been hard on the TSD people. For one reason or another. Personally I don't have anything to add to the discussions one way or another. This thread has been hard on Gary Arthur, but he has written many posts that I whole heartedly agreed with and refrained from posting myself because I thought what he wrote was fair and well written. I guess it depends on which side if the fence you stand. After being a quiet observer for the past couple years I have come to respect some Bujinkan people because of their sincerity and knowledge, but that doen't mean I haven't disagreed with them also! :p

Really I have been turned off to Ninjutsu in all its forms. I know that my motivations for training have changed and I no longer yearn to wear black pjs and sneak around. I think my interest in ninjutsu was rooted in adolescent fantasy and now that I am a big boy there are other arts that appeal to my whole wheat side. To be fair, I don't know much about the Genbukan or Jinenkan. I have perused their main sites, but that about the extent of it. I am sure they have their strong and weak points too.

I am sorry to be down on everyone, you can thank Mr. Hayes and this forum for that. Please take this post with a grain of salt. I don't mean anything personally, just to say I personally have had a change of heart, but continue to lurk hoping for another interesting post.
 

Don Roley

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r erman said:
What is unfortunate is that many of the agenda trolls that have a beef with Hayes(and yes there are a lot of people--especially on MAP--that delight in attacking him just to get Gary's goad it sometimes seems)

If his behavior over there is anything like it was here, I would suspect Gary Arthur is to blame for a lot or the trouble. Remember, he got banned here and at e-budo. There is a difference between saying, "we train in a realstic fashion in Toshindo" and "In contrast to what the Bujinkan does we train in a realistic fashion in Toshindo."

If you don't believe me, see some of the threads he started.

I think we need more people like you out there mending fences between the two arts and less people like him. If you do not like the impression that he leaves of Toshindo practicioners, you should get more active and provide a contrast. Start posting here for a start with some positive stuff.

And yes, I am serious about someone contacting Hayes and letting him know what is going on. I do think that when someone gets banned for using multiple accounts on a message board that the people he is representing should be told. I think that if Hayes let it be known that he did not want Gary starting trouble there would be a lot less headaches for some of us on the internet. I do not see how anyone outside of the Koga ryu guys really gains by the troubles between Toshindo and Bujinkan.
 

ginshun

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If I had to guess, I would say that it is very highly doubtful that Stephen Hayes pays much mind to what is said about him on internet webboards or the internet in general for that matter. I think he is probably relevely aware of most things that are said, but I doubt he really cares one way or the other.

Does Hatsumi care what is said about him and the Buj on bullshido.net? Doubtful.

and Nim, what is George's site?
 
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