animal roots of Karate?

[opr1945]

In reading about styles of Karate frequently animal names are applied to various styles, i.e. dragon, snake, tiger, leopard, crane, monkey, mantis, eagle, dog, deer, bear to name a few. I also found this in a different post by way of explanation:

"...as i have learned them the five animals are five different fighting strategies. Tigers are more direct using heaviness and grabs and breaks and frontal attacks more than the leopard which uses more angles of attack and quick shifts to generate power with less holding than a tiger would use. the crane uses evasion and disrupts the balance of its opponets..no frontal attacks no meeting force with force, the snake is of two types constictor and viper the constictor style of fighting will wrap limbs and use chokes, the viper works on attacking vital point and vulnerable areas. the dragon combines different aspects of the other animals and also moves around the opponent attacks different zones simultaneuosly."

This is in reference to Kenpo. Uechi Ryu uses dragon, tiger and crane styles.

It makes some sense except for dragon. As I understand history dragons, at least as pictured in Asian art, never existed. so how can a karate style mimick their fighting movements?

 

[Haruhiko]

In reading about styles of Karate frequently animal names are applied to various styles, i.e. dragon, snake, tiger, leopard, crane, monkey, mantis, eagle, dog, deer, bear to name a few. I also found this in a different post by way of explanation:

"...as i have learned them the five animals are five different fighting strategies. Tigers are more direct using heaviness and grabs and breaks and frontal attacks more than the leopard which uses more angles of attack and quick shifts to generate power with less holding than a tiger would use. the crane uses evasion and disrupts the balance of its opponets..no frontal attacks no meeting force with force, the snake is of two types constictor and viper the constictor style of fighting will wrap limbs and use chokes, the viper works on attacking vital point and vulnerable areas. the dragon combines different aspects of the other animals and also moves around the opponent attacks different zones simultaneuosly."

This is in reference to Kenpo. Uechi Ryu uses dragon, tiger and crane styles.

It makes some sense except for dragon. As I understand history dragons, at least as pictured in Asian art, never existed. so how can a karate style mimick their fighting movements?

It's not about the literal characteristics of the animals, but rather the archetypes they represent.

Monkey-forms would be the unpredictable, flexible, and maybe clever; the dragon is a symbol of connection to water and sky in some styles, and embodies a simultaneous attack and défense paradigm; the tiger is calculated in striking at the right opportunit, and embodies ferocity as well as stealth/surprise depending on the art.

 

[opr1945]

I found this:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is in reference to Kenpo.

One day a Kenpo Karate instructor walked into my school. He said, "I teach dragon, tiger, leopard, snake, crane. What do you teach?" I said, "I teach Cha, Hua, Hong, Tang, Pao." I knew what he was talking about. He didn't know what I was talking about.

My school was a Kenpo Karate school location. Next door was a topless dancing bar that used to be the Jhoon Rhee's 1st TKD school in Austin, Texas.

 

[opr1945]

Okay, I will bite. What is

"I teach Cha, Hua, Hong, Tang, Pao."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Okay, I will bite. What is

"I teach Cha, Hua, Hong, Tang, Pao."

That the 5 branches of the long fist system.

 

[opr1945]

That the 5 branches of the long fist system.

That literally answers the question. But, I still dont know what it is. What is the Long Fist System?

My ignorance is showing. Again. LOL

 

[Buka]

Wolfman Martial Arts without weapons.

Wolverine Fu with edged weapons.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That literally answers the question. But, I still dont know what it is. What is the Long Fist System?

My ignorance is showing. Again. LOL

Long fist is the northern Chinese MA system.

Cha Quan #4:

Hua Quan:

Hong Quan:

Tan Tui:

Pao Quan #3:

 

[opr1945]

Interesting. Thank you. It does not look like anything I have been doing.

Let me see if I got this. It is a North Chinese Martial Art. Karate is a South Chinese Martial Art as modified, interpreted, by Okinawans?

Thanks, again.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Interesting. Thank you. It does not look like anything I have been doing.

Let me see if I got this. It is a North Chinese Martial Art. Karate is a South Chinese Martial Art as modified, interpreted, by Okinawans?

Thanks, again.

The major difference between northern CMA (such as long fist) and southern CMA (such as Karate) is when you throw a back reverse punch,

- Northern CMA (such as long fist) requires your punching arm and back shoulder to make a perfect straight line (1 long arm and 1 short arm).
- Southern CMA (such as karate) may require your punching arm and back shoulder make a 90-degree angle (both arms have the same reach).

This is long fist punch.

Karate punch:

 

[Same Trick]

Let me see if I got this. It is a North Chinese Martial Art. Karate is a South Chinese Martial Art as modified, interpreted, by Okinawans?

Thanks, again.

Southern CMA is said to stream from southern Shaolin temple in Fujian Province which is Said to have been established by ”monks” from the Northern shaolin temple, northern Shaolin temple is said to have inspired most northern CMA

 

[Gyakuto]

In reading about styles of Karate frequently animal names are applied to various styles, i.e. dragon, snake, tiger, leopard, crane, monkey, mantis, eagle, dog, deer, bear to name a few.

Do they? Japanese/Okinawan Karate? I’ve never heard of this before outside of, say, crane/cat stance or plover step.

 

[opr1945]

Just repeating what I read on the internet.

The Five Animal Styles that Influenced Karate | GKR Karate

Shihan Anthony Ryan’s passion in Karate has been studying the five major animal styles of the Fujian Province, and showing how they are still relevant

www.gkrkarate.com

And this:

Does karate have animal style forms?

Answer (1 of 6): Ahhh, memories of a late Friday night, waiting impatiently for the start of BLACK BELT THEATER!!!! Watching classics like Drunken Master (the original and Jackie Chan’s version), The Five Deadly Venoms, and Iron Fist would always lead to heated debates over which style was the be...

www.quora.com

I also found a reference that said animal styles are very common in Southern Chinese Martial Arts which are the basis for Okinawan Karate so yes, Karate is based on animal styles. However, this morning I could not find that reference but I did find this.

(If it's on the internet it must be true.)

Explainer | 12 animal fighting styles that form the basis of Chinese martial arts

Techniques inspired by 12 animals are associated with a powerful style of Chinese martial arts called xing yi quan, practised today for health and fitness. Sorry, Kung Fu Panda fans – pandas do not get a mention.

www.scmp.com

 

[Gyakuto]

Just repeating what I read on the internet.

The Five Animal Styles that Influenced Karate | GKR Karate

Shihan Anthony Ryan’s passion in Karate has been studying the five major animal styles of the Fujian Province, and showing how they are still relevant

www.gkrkarate.com

Go Kan Ryu is a Western (Australian) school rather than a traditional Japanese/Okinawan school. Having trained with them for a short while, I’d suggest they are a McDojo.

And this:

Does karate have animal style forms?

Answer (1 of 6): Ahhh, memories of a late Friday night, waiting impatiently for the start of BLACK BELT THEATER!!!! Watching classics like Drunken Master (the original and Jackie Chan’s version), The Five Deadly Venoms, and Iron Fist would always lead to heated debates over which style was the be...

www.quora.com

He only mentions cat stance, Gankaku, crane kata where there’s stance standing on one leg. The animal link is tenuous.

I also found a reference that said animal styles are very common in Southern Chinese Martial Arts which are the basis for Okinawan Karate so yes, Karate is based on animal styles. However, this morning I could not find that reference but I did find this.

(If it's on the internet it must be true.)

Explainer | 12 animal fighting styles that form the basis of Chinese martial arts

Techniques inspired by 12 animals are associated with a powerful style of Chinese martial arts called xing yi quan, practised today for health and fitness. Sorry, Kung Fu Panda fans – pandas do not get a mention.

www.scmp.com

But it’s Kung Fu, not Karate. Again a very old and tenuous link.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Go Kan Ryu is a Western (Australian) school rather than a traditional Japanese/Okinawan school. Having trained with them for a short while, I’d suggest they are a McDojo.

.

I noticed he has the title "Shihan," a general term used to denote someone of great knowledge and respect. I've never come across anyone under 60 and being an 8th degree to have that title attached to them, at least in karate. He's identified as a 6th. But I'm in a bubble of well-pedigreed experts, so what do I know.

The Five Animal Styles that Influenced Karate | GKR Karate

Shihan Anthony Ryan’s passion in Karate has been studying the five major animal styles of the Fujian Province, and showing how they are still relevant

www.gkrkarate.com

This video of his has captions of animal styles, but they're just sparring combinations he (randomly?) relates to particular animals, rather than actually incorporating real kung fu animals style into his karate.

He only mentions cat stance, Gankaku, crane kata where there’s stance standing on one leg. The animal link is tenuous.

Modern karate does have some animal influence that can be seen in a few individual moves as kung fu carry-overs. Besides those listed above, the is a tiger and dragon position that can be found in a couple of kata. But a couple of positions do not an "animal" kata or karate style make. Practical fighting methods take precedent over molding karate technique to fit into a particular animal style. Though one is free to mentally internalize the fighting spirit of an animal if they wish.

 

[opr1945]

I have never practiced Martial Arts in Western Australia so I have no personal experience there to have formed an opinion on that.

Perhaps, the internet is not as indisputable as alleged.

 

[Same Trick]

I’m not a Japanese language maestro so I don’t know for a fact that “kiba dachi” actually translate to “horse stance”, anyway if so that would pick up to a count of three karate “animal” stances -horse, cat and crane.

Gichin Funakoshi renamed the Wanshu kata to be called Empi supposedly meaning swallow/swift flight, probably taken from the name of a Jigen-ryu sword school kata.
Also he renamed the Naihanchi kata to be called Tekki that supposedly translate to iron-horse.
Also Funakoshi had an emblem styled as a tiger to be an official emblem of his style of karate(Shotokan), the tiger is more as a symbol of spirit rather than physical mimicking.

As for the above mentioned Naihanchi kata no one really know the real meaning of that name, some refer the Kata as crab walking kata because of its side walking characteristics.

Isshin-ryu is a karate style that seem to be quite present on this forum, the Isshin-ryu emblem depicts a dragon so I suppose that specific creature hold an important role in the characteristics of that style ?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Isshin-ryu is a karate style that seem to be quite present on this forum, the Isshin-ryu emblem depicts a dragon so I suppose that specific creature hold an important role in the characteristics of that style ?

Not at all. The patch was designed by an early US Marine student of Shimabuku, Sensei Advincula, a few years after the style was founded. It was based on a dream Master Shimabuku had. How this dream was transmitted to Advincula, I don't know. There may have been a senior Okinawan student "middleman" involved. It's inconceivable the Master would confide his dreams to a junior blackbelt foreigner. How much the patch accurately portrays the dream and how much was embellished by Advincula (and possibly other students at the time) cannot be known. But the patch was made and endorsed by the Master.

As for the patch's meaning, one would have to be an interpreter of dreams as it was not purposefully designed. A lot of features exist in this complex, colorful and beautiful design which were probably given meaning after the fact IMO. A stormy sea, a calm goddess, a dragon, etc. All of it can be given to various interpretations, some obvious in Oriental culture, some just made up to fill out the story. It all sounds good, but I don't personally put too much importance to the mostly made-up symbolism. To me it simply represents a great traditional Okinawan karate style.

 

[Gyakuto]

Isshin-ryu is a karate style that seem to be quite present on this forum, the Isshin-ryu emblem depicts a dragon so I suppose that specific creature hold an important role in the characteristics of that style ?

An exhaustive list, indeed!

I’m not very familiar with Chinese arts but when I have seen some animal forms being performed, there’s an attempt to mimic the movements of the particular movement; snakes rapid strike and retreat, the monkey’s leaping manner, hands and arms held in a tiger’s claw-like pose. This ‘mimicry’ is completely absent in Karate.

Dragons are, of course, mythological and so their movements can be whatever you want them to be!