Animal MacYoung on the MAs

[tmanifold]

[qoute]Self defense focused training is about judgement, awareness, tool usage, legal/societal understanding (use of force/deadly force) along with the martial arts techniques. The GOAL and INTENT of self defense martial arts is the quick hit and escape. That means that you train to create distraction and dysfunction of your opponent and not to force them to SUBMIT within some spoken or unspoken set of rules.
[/quote]

That was well put. There are do ways to win a sport fight. Points and making your opponent unable or unwilling to continue. To "win" in self defense you could, de-escalate, escape, stun and run, hold on until help arrives, hurt them bad enough you can win, break something, knock them out, kill them, etc. It goes on and on.

As Hedgey said there are no shortcuts in martial arts training nor in sport fighting. But we aren't talking about that. One of the reasons you must put in the hundreds of hour of training for sport fighting is your opponent will be doing the same and in a similar manner to you. You fight under the same rules, use pretty much the same techniques, so all that is left (besides innate talent) is how hard you prepared.

SD is about changing the rules. Lets role with this 120 pound housewife idea because quite frankly me being able to defend myself does really prove RBSD. I am 190 pounds, very solid, with years of martial arts training (Traditional, Sport and Reality based) with 6 years in the infantry. I can handle myself and I can say that without boasting. Lets look at out housewife. She is 120 pounds, of middle years, she may or may not be in shape but she definatly is no match physically for say someone of my size. She is not going to get called out in a bar and she is not going to get in a consensual one on one fight. She will most likely be defending herself from a rape or mugging or she will be defending her children. She is most likely going to be attacked by someone who will use his size and the fact that he is male to initmidate her.

This person will most likely be operating under the assumption that this women is an easy target who will not fight back much. If our housewife fights back at all, she will have automatically created an opening by changing the percieved rules of the encounter. She must follow up quickly so she doesn't lose what little advantage she gained. She will be in a highly emotional state, she will have achieved a full adrenal dump and she will be thinking on a fairly primal level. Lets be clear on this, this won't be the "Cerebral Assassin", she will be more like the enraged cavegirl. A double leg is pretty easy to do even under extreme stress but it is normally more like a tackle then a clean double leg. Our 120 pound housewife may not have the bodyweight to drive our attacker off his feet if she doesn't get it right. Even if she does then what? She would have to follow up mighty fast or risk losing her momentum. I can say from long personal experience and watching literally hundred of grappling matches, that groundfighting is not fast. If she loses her momentum she is in trouble, I know I could bench a struggling 120 female of of me easy, so we should assume that our attacker can too. She has now lost her advantage.

Same scenario but now our housewife uses combatives methods. She drives forward drop stepping into a lead hand edge of hand blow to the throat. That takes very little strength. She follows up with a chin jab. I understand that people died during WW2 practicing the technique, so I think it is safe to assume that our housewife could stun our assailant a bit. She follows that up with a knee to the groin. Unless she is fighting Hedgy, assailant is hurt now. She stomps on the attackers knee or foot to impair his mobility then she turns tail and runs.

The second scenario doesn't take years of dedication. I believe it takes more than a 4 hour seminar but it can be taught relatively quickly and retained fairly easily.

 

[ppko]

a good post .


PPKO

 

[hedgehogey]

Same scenario but now our housewife uses combatives methods. She drives forward drop stepping into a lead hand edge of hand blow to the throat.

So you're basically advocating KNIFE HAND STRIKES for women's self defense? Are you insane?!

That takes very little strength.

Crushing the throat takes a LOT of strength! The only documented cases of it ever happening are from flying hockey pucks.

She follows up with a chin jab. I understand that people died during WW2 practicing the technique, so I think it is safe to assume that our housewife could stun our assailant a bit.

A CHIN JAB? A chin jab is a PALM STRIKE TO THE CHIN. It is LESS POWERFUL than the equivalent boxing punch. When was the last time you saw someone knocked out by a palm strike in an mma match? There are whole MMA events where closed fist punches aren't allowed, only palm strikes.

She follows that up with a knee to the groin. Unless she is fighting Hedgy, assailant is hurt now.

You do understand that the groin is not a magic button that you can push whenever you're in trouble, right? It is a PAIN BASED MOVE. It only incapacitates you if you can't take the pain. If you CAN take the pain...well god help the woman.

She stomps on the attackers knee or foot to impair his mobility then she turns tail and runs.

After performing four other moves where the attacker just STANDS THERE.

I can't believe you're advocating this stuff. Even if the techniques were perfect, there is no way a soccer mom can become a person capable of serious harm in ONE WEEK. Even if her techniques were perfect, even if they worked wonderfully, she'd lack the neccesary physical and mental toughness! She doesn't have the arm, shoulder or waist strength to hurt anyone with a "lead edge of hand strike" or a "chin jab". She doesn't have the toned legs to hurt anyone with a knee to the nuts.
And she WILL panic if her attacker starts raining down blows.

Do you even address the ground at all?

I've seen these kind of programs in action. I watched my mom take the IMPACT course twice. Her self defense ability did not improve one bit.

She does GJJ with me now.

You sir, are going to get some woman seriously hurt or raped one day. I hope you feel real good about yourself.

 

[Flatlander]

So you're basically advocating KNIFE HAND STRIKES for women's self defense? Are you insane?!

I believe that in terms of rapid learning, a knife hand strike is quicker to learn than a properly executed punch. As well, the hand remains open, making a grab much easier. I would expect you would be the first to advocate anything that might facillitate a grab.

Crushing the throat takes a LOT of strength! The only documented cases of it ever happening are from flying hockey pucks

I have a couple of problems with this statement. First, a throat crush technique requires very little strength, rather, good technique and targeting ought to be sufficient, perhaps something one would gain from hours and hours of kata practice. Secondly, I rather doubt that the only throats ever crushed in the history of humanity were due to hockey pucks.

A CHIN JAB? A chin jab is a PALM STRIKE TO THE CHIN. It is LESS POWERFUL than the equivalent boxing punch. When was the last time you saw someone knocked out by a palm strike in an mma match? There are whole MMA events where closed fist punches aren't allowed, only palm strikes.

Effectiveness of open hand techniques adressed above. Now, are we talking MMA sports, or women's self defence? I don't think anyone has claimed that they could train anyone to fare well in a MMA event in one week's time.

I've seen these kind of programs in action. I watched my mom take the IMPACT course twice. Her self defense ability did not improve one bit.

This does not provide adequate evidence as to the effectiveness of the course. The sample size is too small, and only one instructor was referenced. I'm sure that you can recieve different training value from different instructors. Once again, I would expect you to advocate this practice as an advanced MMA practitioner.

You sir, are going to get some woman seriously hurt or raped one day. I hope you feel real good about yourself.

This was unnecessary, don't you think? I don't think this type of language is necessary in a friendly discussion. I will submit that I have been this passionate about my viewpoints as well at times, but the more we point this out to eachother, the better we'll all get.

Respectfully,

Me.

 

[Tgace]

This threads in a flat spin and heading out to sea.

 

[Flatlander]

Yep, you're right. I probably should have stayed out of it.

 

[tmanifold]

You know, your right this thread is over. The is no arguing with this guy. Knife hands to the throat aren't effective. Open handed blows don't hurt or do any damage. Tell that to Keith Hackney or Bas Rutten. A knee to the balls is an ineffective technique. If these don't work, god help us. If you can't hurt someone by attacking his throat and his nuts what can you possibly do?


Hedgey you really need to sit back an look at what you posted to see just what you denied in your quest to hack RBSD. I teach this stuff because I know it works, it has been proven over and over again, and I sleep fine at night.


Tony

 

[hedgehogey]

I believe that in terms of rapid learning, a knife hand strike is quicker to learn than a properly executed punch. As well, the hand remains open, making a grab much easier. I would expect you would be the first to advocate anything that might facillitate a grab.

Targeting the throat? The throat is a very small target! This is a KARATE CHOP. Have we learned nothing about fighting since the 1950s?

I have a couple of problems with this statement. First, a throat crush technique requires very little strength,

How do you know? How is she even going to have the neccesary timing and aggresiveness if she's never hit a resisting opponent?

rather, good technique and targeting ought to be sufficient, perhaps something one would gain from hours and hours of kata practice.

You have got to be kidding me. Do you seriously believe that hours of kata practice will help a woman defend herself?

Secondly, I rather doubt that the only throats ever crushed in the history of humanity were due to hockey pucks.

I said the only DOCUMENTED MEDICAL CASES of this happening are through hockey pucks. And a golf club.

There are plenty of MMA events where this is legal. Of course you're gonna say it's different for a weak woman being attacked. But then why aren't strong young athletes using it? It obviously doesn't seem to be working for them. These men have a natural advantage over a small woman, yet they've tossed that technique in the trash. Even vs barroom brawlers like tank abbot it never seems to happen.
And MMA fighters have throats like anyone elses. Why aren't they being crushed?

Effectiveness of open hand techniques adressed above. Now, are we talking MMA sports, or women's self defence? I don't think anyone has claimed that they could train anyone to fare well in a MMA event in one week's time.

It doesn't matter. It's a PALM STRIKE TO THE CHIN. It doesn't work for young men in peak physical condition. It is NOT going to work for a frail middle aged woman.

This does not provide adequate evidence as to the effectiveness of the course. The sample size is too small, and only one instructor was referenced. I'm sure that you can recieve different training value from different instructors. Once again, I would expect you to advocate this practice as an advanced MMA practitioner.

I observed the same thing with the other couple dozen women taking the course. I even spoke with the guys in the suits. They're not really attacking. They "go with the technique".

This was unnecessary, don't you think? I don't think this type of language is necessary in a friendly discussion. I will submit that I have been this passionate about my viewpoints as well at times, but the more we point this out to eachother, the better we'll all get.

I'm sorry, but that is what I believe is going to happen. Think long and hard about this, because you are responsible if you give them false confidence, or if they get raped.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Of course, maybe the claim that you watched your mom take the whole course twice should suggest something about the usefulness of quick courses for most people.

My guess is that for most people, ANY good martial art taught by a good instructuor and practiced diligently will help.

However, many people--myself included, and a lot of women--will not learn to strike back in a week or two. Unfortunately, the flat reality is that many--for the 93rd time, not all, but many--people need longer than that. And they need the forms, and the sets, and the long slow practice that so often gets insulted by people who don't actually pay attention to what students are doing.

HH, you're utterly contradicting yourself in your last post. A little way back, you were claiming that gross motor skills could be taught to provide effective self-defense within a week; now, you're arguing that practice, 'against a resisting opponent," is essential. I agree--is this supposed to all take place in that one action-packed week.

You're doing what works for you. That's excellent. Still...

 

[MJS]

WOW!!! Its great to see that the topic got back on track!

Mike

 

[OULobo]

I keep telling my self to stay out of it, but as Pacino said, "Every time I get out, THEY PULL ME BACK IN!"

It seems the heart of the issue is the resiliancy of the human body verses the effectivness of the logical targeted attacks. Both have very valid defenses. The human body will constantly amaze you in it's ability to withstand attack and it's propensity to continue fighting. On the other hand martial arts in general are based on the idea of using the many aspects of science and logic to make a person's body more effective against an opponent's body, more so than instinct makes us naturally.

The problem with the whole "that won't work" or the "this always works" statements is that there are too many other issues that come into play during a real confrontation; the experience of an defender/attacker, their physical condition, their mental state, their setting, weapons, friends, motivation, ect. The best way to train a disadvantaged (read less physically fit) person to defend themselves is through strict, regimented, repetitious training and application in fast paced or real-time, open-ended situational drills. This allows for both refinment of technique and becoming accustomed to applying said technique to real world situations. However if you do these things, which will take time, motivation and dedication, you will be becoming both a martial artist and a fit person in the process.

Although many people down play it's effectivness, I would still venture to say the easiest to learn and most effective way to avoid or deal with a situation, is awarness and weaponry. Both are part of the truly well rounded fighter, but generally they are easier to learn and more well suited for the less physically capable. I will qualify the statement with the notion that no matter what you do or train, an extremely motivated and dedicated individual will find a way to get what they want, just like a cop telling you that if a car theif really wants your car, he will find a way to get it. It may sound fatalistic, but if someone is single minded in their goal of killing you and has a modicom of intelligence and resource, you might as well buy a plot early. The key is using as many tools as possible to make the idea of attaining his goal not worth his effort and risk.

I think Mr. MacYoung's main idea is at least partially valid, but his eloquence, communication and argument abilities are lacking. I have met many great fighters that have no ability to teach. This doesn't mean they don't have good info, just that they have no good way of making you understand it.

 

[tmanifold]

The human body will constantly amaze you in it's ability to withstand attack and it's propensity to continue fighting.

You don't have to crush the windpipe (for example) for it to be an effective technique. All youhave to do is hurt them enough to allow you to follow up with another technique. I have been popped in the throat before, albeit lightly, and it made my head snap back and my hands reach for my throat. It is like the eye attack, that is commonly given as a defense on the ground by RBSD people. Sportfighters say that it is hard to really gouge someones eyes out while you are a bad position on the ground. You know what, they're right. However, while your thumbs are digging the eyes, you can be working your hips to gain better position or you can combine it with a buck and roll to get the guy off of you.

The reason places like the throat and groin are targeted more often is because they can be, which is different than every major sport fighting styles and that they have a high effectiveness to needed strength ratio. It takes alot of strength to concuss someone's brain with a punch. It takes even more to seriously injure someone with a roundhouse to the thigh (unless you use the toe of your Doc Martins, but that is a different story).

Tony

 

[loki09789]

Yah know it is funny the timing:

I was flipping through the channels today and the local sport channel was playing one of the current UFC championship matches. Both guys were VERY fit and VERY powerful but there were somethings I noticed that just reaffirms my statements/observations about the difference between Self Defense focused training and Sport/MMA type training - to include BJJ in the competative training.

1. I saw one fighter actually remove his thumb from his opponent's mouth when he realized it was hooked on the guys lip. If it was a 'no rules' fight why wouldn't the guy have clamped down and used that lip rip to distract/control the head at the very least?

2. When the guy's thumb was in the opponent's mouth, The opponent didn't Clamp down on it with his chompers and take it clean off! Again, no rules would imply that these techniques would not only be allowed, but encouraged as examples of craftiness and 'economy of motion' (getting maximum results from minimum energy expenditure).

3. Not a single eye gouge. Not one.

4. Not a single throat shot. I don't mean a choke but a strike.

5. When one fighter was trying to get a 'sleeper' type choke set on the other fighter, he never reached over and grabbed the guys nose as a lever, hooked under the filtrup (sp?) as a lever, or just covered the other guys mouth/nose with his hand to block off air to force him to throw his head around and open the path to his throat.....

I guess I might not know my mount from my guard very well, but I do now that it will take more fitness and strength to take your opponent out if you restrict yourself to powershots, strength moves and don't use the little pinches, jabs, bites, grabs and the million other 'dirty shots' you picked up just wrestling in grammar school playgrounds....

I am ALL about working smart instead of just hard.

 

[mcjon77]

Targeting the throat? The throat is a very small target! This is a KARATE CHOP.
I said the only DOCUMENTED MEDICAL CASES of this happening are through hockey pucks. And a golf club.

:bs:

Just wanted to make a note of something here. Before the internet, statements like this (usually made in a face to face verbal debate/argument) had to go unanswered . God bless google. For a simple test as to whether hedge's statement is true, simply go to google and type in "crushed windpipe" "crushed trachea" and "crushed larynx" in separate searches (the medical term for windpipe is trachea and the larynx is just above the trachea). I did and got 401 hits for the larynx, 362 for the windpipe, and 146 for the trachea. I added the word "puck" to my searches (so it looked like this: "crushed larynx" puck) and got 2 hits with larynx, 0 hits with windpipe, and 1 hit with trachea . For "golf club" I got another 2 hits with larynx, 0 hits with windpipe, and 0 hits with trachea . Since many of the reports were the result of autopsies and/or medical examinations/treatment (including a few links to medical journals) this pretty much throws the whole hockey pucks and golf club statement out of the window.

A large number of the links which involved crushed tracheas/windpipes/larynxes seemed to refer to either machine related accidents or physical assualts on people by people (a few by police, one by North Korean Guards on a US Army Major). One refered to a woman being mauled by a dog. Hedgehogey, where did you get this whole hockey puck and golf club idea? Did someone tell this "fact" to you? Did you read it somewhere? Did you just make it up based on events you have heard?

Maybe I shouldn't be as disturbed by your statement as I am, but I have an extreme problem when people disseminate obviously false information. Especially when that information relates to something as important as personal safety. This may seem like a trivial point to you, however to me it is extremely telling. This is beyond a simple "TMA sucks,/MMA is best for self defense" statement. That is only an opinion. It doesn't matter if you are some 11 yr old kid who saw his first UFc, or Rickson Gracie with 400 fights under your belt. It is your opinion and you have the right to keep it, express it, and argue in favor of it. But when you include completely false statements and present them as fact you are IMHO crossing the line. This false statement you made calls into extreme doubt not only your stance in the argument, but the honesty and thoroughness with which you present it. It really calls your credibility as an honest debater and poster into question. While I wont go as far as to call you an internet troll yet, I am having serious doubts about other parts of your story.

In reality, this really wasn't necessary to do a formal check. We could simply use a good old common sense to see the effectiveness of a throat strike. Simply swinging at my own throat with a light ridge hand strike causes me to automaticlly gag and cough up phlem. You don't have to crush the trachea with the strike to get the person to stop his attack long enough for her to escape. Hedge, if you still don't believe that a strike to the throat by a small woman is effective, why don't you get some 100-110 pound women with no martial arts training. Show her how to make a lepoard fist (thats what we called it in goju-shorei) let her take a few shots with it at a focus mit, and then tell her to hit you right in the throat at full power :btg: .

Second thought, don't do it (at least don't try to sue me after you do ). Just to cover my own butt, I'm going to state what should be painfully obvious to almost everyone who reads this. If you let this women do this, there is a very strong chance you will be seriously injured or killed. She really does not need to even crush it with the first shot. From what I understand, if she strikes hard enough to cause swelling, that could constrict your oxygen supply and lead to death (I would have to check with my father, who is an ear, nose, and throat specialist to be sure about this point). If she does crush your larynx or trachea you stand a good chance of dying due to lack of oxygen. These types of injuries have an extremely high mortality rate, in large part due to the fact that people can't receive treatment quick enough.

Jon

 

[Flatlander]

Good post Jon! Way to Google and share!

 

[hedgehogey]

Mcjon77: I read those back when bullshido was still mcdojo.com but they seem to have gotten lost in the transition to bullshido. Obviously you've dug up more. Good for you.

I have been hit in the throat in sparring, mostly accidentally. It is no big deal. Obviously, anything is effective if you just stand there and let yourself be hit. A better test would be if I were moving around and hitting back.

Loki: This is getting very frustrating. How many times do I have to explain to you. The current UFC has a bunch of retarded rules. This is due to ignorant lawmakers. BACK WHEN IT STARTED there were "no rules". Today in brazil you can still find no rules events.
They look the same as MMA with rules.The stuff you listed (except the last one) do not work, even when allowed in the sporting arena. You seem to have a preconcieved idea of what a fight looks like.

HH, you're utterly contradicting yourself in your last post. A little way back, you were claiming that gross motor skills could be taught to provide effective self-defense within a week; now, you're arguing that practice, 'against a resisting opponent," is essential. I agree--is this supposed to all take place in that one action-packed week.

If I ever advocated any training being effective without a resisting opponent, I was being a massive dumbass.
What i'm trying to say is, a week is not long enough to impart real self defense skills.

Tmanifold: You still haven't answered my question. Where, in a week, will a woman get the required physical strength to fight off a male attacker? Where will she get the ability to knock someone out with a "chin jab"? Don't tell me "you don't need strength", you know that's BS.

And most importantly, how will she get any sparring done in that time?

Once again, a week is not long enough to impart real self defense skills.

 

[Cruentus]

"Back when UFC started, there were NO rules!"

Wrong! They had the same "retarded rules" that all the vale tudo and other events had. They weren't widely advertized, but they were there. Usually in the form of major fines for breaking them.

Sorry to crush your worldview, though. Back to the conversation about how grappling and steroids rock, and how any other form of self-defense the doesn't apply in the cage much suck. I'm learnin' lots...

Yours,

Mick Foley

 

[loki09789]

Loki: This is getting very frustrating. How many times do I have to explain to you. The current UFC has a bunch of retarded rules. This is due to ignorant lawmakers. BACK WHEN IT STARTED there were "no rules". Today in brazil you can still find no rules events.
They look the same as MMA with rules.The stuff you listed (except the last one) do not work, even when allowed in the sporting arena. You seem to have a preconcieved idea of what a fight looks like.

Yes, this is getting frustrating. The "old UFC" fight look EXACTLY the same in regards to the stuff I posted. The "retarded rules" you are referring to are the same conceptually as those "retarded laws" around justified use of force/deadly force - keep people alive and show some measure of socially acceptable sportsmanship and concern for safety. I don't think these rules are "retarded" as much as "lies" to the public when advertising says "no rules."

IF the "No rules" MMA fights in Brazil look the same as MMA 'with rules' then there are either 'gentlemanly rules' or 'fine enforcement' as Janulis has mentioned. Do some research on the UFC "old RULES" and get back to me.

That stuff won't work? I think someone beat me to it, but I lay it before you again: Put your finger in your little 5 year old brother/sister/cousin/whatever's mouth and say "Bite me as hard as you want." and tell me that won't take some of the steam out of you. Do the same with the other things listed - have someone do it with at least a measure of intention and then tell me it doesn't work. (You are responsible for your own choices if you choose to act on that stuff BTW.)

You are confusing "neural response" and dysfunction with someone being 'tough enough' to gut out the hit/attack. The brain can only focus on one thing at a time (learned that in my Ed Psych classes before you want to dispute brain studies). If I can cause pain/dysfunction/distraction because I bite down on your finger then you will not be able to focus your 'mind on the muscles' that you are using to try and lock me/strike me/choke me....what ever for at least a moment. I can use that moment to escape or counter attack. That stuff will work as long as YOU know how to make it work.

I have noticed that I, along with others have acknowledged that your preferred style of training is a valid component but not the end all be all of self defense training. As a martial artist why would you ignore/resist information from respectable people and sources that might make you more well rounded? I am not a rival grappler/school saying that "My kung fu is stronger than your kung fu"... I am saying that there are other ways/goals and tools that will work. I have felt them, used them and trust their effectiveness. Before you ask, yes in reality (though not very much THANK GOD) as well as in training. I will not tote my 'fight resume' because it is tacky.

What is the risk in demonstrating some respect for other ways? Will it topple your instructor and your training? No, because it is not in competition with you - whole different venue.

 

[tmanifold]

The original rules of the UFC were: Not biting, no eye gouging and no fish hooking. Right from the start they played it fairly safe. Groin shots were allowed and they were put to effective use (remember Joe Son?) Those three moves are what turn groundfighting into a mainly physical contest to one of violence and aggression. As for the fights in Brazil, I have seen some of them and they fight under essentially the same rules as the original UFC, where do you think the gracies got the rules? To my knowledge, biting and eye gouging are not legal in any sport style competion in the world.

Tony

 

[hedgehogey]

Gentlemanly rules? Are you kidding me? Brazilian vale tudo fighters HATE each other. Look at pele fight and tell me he'd adhere to any "gentleman's agreement".

As for your experiment suggestion, I told you before, anything works on someone who's not fighting back. The experiment you should be doing is wether you can do it vs a resisting opponent.

I shouldn't say eye gouging/throat attacks/peeing in his mouth/whatever don't work. But they're neither fight enders, nor something you should focus more than 5% of your training on. The rest should be dedicated to conditioning and acquiring the alive, athletic base that will allow you to use these techniques.

Let me use an old example: Teach an amatuer boxer how to eye poke or strike the throat and he could be an eye boinking machine, able to burst anyone's eyeballs.

But a "streetfighting expert" who's never put on gloves and got in the ring won't get much better at eye boinking and won't ever reach the boxer's level. This is because he does not even have the timing, coordination, etc. to hit a target as big as a face with a weapon as big as a fist.

In other words, if you don't have the timing, conditioning, mental toughness etc. you get from hard sparring you are never going to be able to pull off those str33t lethal moves.

Techniques do not happen in a vacuum where the size of the fighters isn't a factor. In order to get to his eyes, you have to know how to not get ground and pounded, be able to get past his hands, to make sure he doesn't grab your wrists, should be able to attain at least an equal, if not dominant position (try eye gouging from under mount. not fun, huh?)...in other words, you gotta grapple.

All this applies equally to housewives.

Tulisan: Do you really think that with hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line and the whole country watching, any fighter wouldn't use whatever he though neccesary to win? Also, see this quote by a cool man:

"It's not about training for 26 hours a day and taking 'roids to fight in a cage. It's about not waving your arms and legs in the air against invisible opponents and pretending that makes you better at fighting."