And just HOW is the war going?

[Feisty Mouse]

I wonder when it began, that you had to be among the intellectual elite to support the troops, and then only when your political party says it's OK?

When was being informed about a war - which some people used as the main issue for who they voted for in 2004 - being part of an "elite"? Everyone should keep themselves at least marginally informed of what is happening in Iraq, since so many of our citizens, and so much of our country's wealth, is over there.

And I don't get the political party reference. Repubs and Dems both do the "support our efforts in Iraq" thing.

And, I'd like to say, I'm tired of the "intellectual elite" thing. I love the fact that educational status - or whether you tend to think critically about your world or not - can be used to slam people. Some of the brightest folks I know aren't the ones with years of schooling or PhDs, they are intellectuals who would hardly call themselves "elite".

 

[Phoenix44]

Thank you, Feisty Mouse.

I went to PUBLIC SCHOOL my entire childhood, and got LOANS, which I paid back, for my professional education. No Yalies in my family--most of my ancestors got booted out of their homes in the shtetl, and came over in steerage. Not very elite.

That's the cool thing about getting an education in America. You don't have to be "elite" to be educated and informed. You just have to want it.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Thank you, Feisty Mouse.

I went to PUBLIC SCHOOL my entire childhood, and got LOANS, which I paid back, for my professional education. No Yalies in my family--most of my ancestors got booted out of their homes in the shtetl, and came over in steerage. Not very elite.

That's the cool thing about getting an education in America. You don't have to be "elite" to be educated and informed. You just have to want it.

That's right, Phoenix44. And in our country, even a dimwit can become President. We're the land of equal opportunity...and that's why we're so great.

Sorry. Got a bit jingoistic there.

Oh...yeah...how's the war going? Reports indicate malnutrition is soaring in Iraq. It has doubled since we invaded:

http://www.indystar.com/articles/6/196420-4126-010.html

Probably just another report from the media elite. Those damned elites. They're just popping up everywhere.


Harrumph.


Regards,


Steve

 

[auxprix]

1,500 more troops to go to Iraq.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/12/01/iraq.main/index.html

Certainly not a sign that things are going well...

 

[Phoenix44]

According to the CIA, things are not going well in Iraq at all.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/07/international/middleeast/07intell.html?ei=5094&en=78f41ffc3ad43b8a&hp=&ex=1102482000&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print&position=

 

[PeachMonkey]

According to the CIA, things are not going well in Iraq at all.

But what does the CIA know? Those traitors didn't think that it was necessary to invade Iraq in the first place.

 

[Phoenix44]

But what does the CIA know? Those traitors didn't think that it was necessary to invade Iraq in the first place.

Yeah. That's probably why they've been purged.

 

[MA-Caver]

Those traitors didn't think that it was necessary to invade Iraq in the first place.

Well maybe this is one of the reasons why... socioeconomicpolitical pressure mebbe?

 

[michaeledward]

Well, I suppose when the architect of the war starts blaming the natives, you have to assume the project is progressing just swimmingly.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6751599/

MOSUL, Iraq - In his Christmas eve encounters with U.S. military commanders and hundreds of their troops, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld heard — and said — little about armor or troop shortages, issues that have made him a political target in Washington among both Democrats and Republicans.

His main message over a four-city tour was quite different: that the insurgency has staying power and a seemingly endless supply of weapons, and the time has come for ordinary Iraqis to realize that they — not the Americans — will ultimately decide who prevails in this conflict.

Has any administration of the United States ever passed the buck more ?

Mike

 

[GAB]

I agree the media does get on my nerves to, but to say this isn't a war is just not acurate. I didn't lose friends just to hear someone say this isn't a war. If this isn't a war then what is it? Really?

Rynocerous

Hi,

I should have gotten back to this sooner, should have used along with my remark.

Yes, it is a war. Defined by the dictionary it is truly a battle, we have not lost many, considering the extent of damage we have inflicted.

What I find very disturbing is the way we continually are diluged with the information from a political stand point, not the fact that we are at this as a
line in the sand.

Very difficult to seperate the spins that are put on most of the information.

The ones bad mouthing the administration that is currently involved would be the first to be taken out by other type of government's.

Can you imagine living in Russia even now and saying what is said on these boards.

I feel freedom of speech is the greatest thing going, must be one of the reasons it was so important to the founders of this country.

Freedom of religion also, pretty hard to force it on others though, as we are finding out.

Regards, Gary

 

[michaeledward]

Yes, it is a war. Defined by the dictionary it is truly a battle, we have not lost many, considering the extent of damage we have inflicted.

What I find very disturbing is the way we continually are diluged with the information from a political stand point, not the fact that we are at this as a line in the sand.

Very difficult to seperate the spins that are put on most of the information.

The ones bad mouthing the administration that is currently involved would be the first to be taken out by other type of government's.

Can you imagine living in Russia even now and saying what is said on these boards.

I feel freedom of speech is the greatest thing going, must be one of the reasons it was so important to the founders of this country.

Freedom of religion also, pretty hard to force it on others though, as we are finding out.

This is no longer a war (if it ever was ... I don't recall Congress so declaring it). We are now in the midst of Nation Building. Whatever it was in the beginning, that has ended, or so we were told. But not by the spin masters.

There should be less spin, we agree on this. Let's turn to our highest authority on the subject. Certainly, his statements will be free of spin.

Admiral Kelly, Captain Card (ph), officers and sailors of the USS Abraham Lincoln, my fellow Americans, major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed.

And now our coalition is engaged in securing and reconstructing that country.
In this battle, we have fought for the cause of liberty and for the peace of the world. Our nation and our coalition are proud of this accomplishment, yet it is you, the members of the United States military, who achieved it. Your courage, your willingness to face danger for your country and for each other made this day possible.

Because of you our nation is more secure. Because of you the tyrant has fallen and Iraq is free.

Operation Iraqi Freedom was carried out with a combination of precision and speed and boldness the enemy did not expect and the world had not seen before.

From distant bases or ships at sea, we sent planes and missiles that could destroy an enemy division or strike a single bunker. Marines and soldiers charged to Baghdad across 350 miles of hostile ground in one of the swiftest advances of heavy arms in history.

You have shown the world the skill and the might of the American armed forces.

This nation thanks all of the members of our coalition who joined in a noble cause. We thank the armed forces of the United Kingdom, Australia and Poland who shared in the hardships of war. We thank all of the citizens of Iraq who welcomed our troops and joined in the liberation of their own country.

And tonight, I have a special word for Secretary Rumsfeld, for General Franks and for all the men and women who wear the uniform of the United States: America is grateful for a job well done.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Freedom of religion also, pretty hard to force it on others though, as we are finding out.

Interesting concept, "forcing freedom of religion."

When did the Iraqis ever not have that? It seems as though the various Iraqi religious groups are quite comfortable with their own religions, and it's not clear the Iraqi state ever pushed one religion over another.

 

[The Kai]

Lets hope this isn't percieved in the future as "Empire Building"

BTW the murdering torturing CIA backed, with us weapon creep
Todd

 

[GAB]

Lets hope this isn't percieved in the future as "Empire Building"

BTW the murdering torturing CIA backed, with us weapon creep
Todd

Hi all,

I am not sure that "Empire Building" is right, or left.

Many reasons we went to this location to address this situation.

Todd did you stop? Hit the wrong key? :idunno:

I am wondering about "forcing freedom" of any kind, does it work on nations that are so insecure as to want to be completly controlled?

I am talking about the inability of the country itself to desire freedom...

I feel that this is such a hidious location to live that any type of controlling
government will be seen as the victor...

When America looked for freedom it was a very small minority that were seeking it. We did not vote on it as a nation of individuals.

It will be very interesting to watch this unfold, I am very sorry for the amount of nonaggressive persons dying.

If you look back on our own 'Civil War' it was very brutal, it was also fought over human rights issues (among other issues/items).

Like I said, I believe this is a line in the sand.

It will not be over any faster than the fight for Israel. That particular war is on going and will never end, this is just one of the numerous battles, since we stepped up to the plate and helped them get their piece of dirt again. IMO...

In some respects the South has risen again. Pretty scary for freedoms sake.

Regards, Gary

 

[PeachMonkey]

It will not be over any faster than the fight for Israel. That particular war is on going and will never end, this is just one of the numerous battles, since we stepped up to the plate and helped them get their piece of dirt again. IMO...

Gary,

Which "we" are you talking about? The US assistance of Israel came very late in the game, well after Israel had fought several wars for her existence.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Interesting concept, "forcing freedom of religion."

When did the Iraqis ever not have that? It seems as though the various Iraqi religious groups are quite comfortable with their own religions, and it's not clear the Iraqi state ever pushed one religion over another.

Iraq was a secular nation prior to the invasion. Saddam paid lip service to Islam, but there wasn't any favoritism shown. His persecution of Shias was politically--not religiously--motivated. The Shias had the support of Iran...Saddam's enemies...so he and his sons rounded them up and disposed of them whenever they acted up. It had nothing to do with a preference for Sunni Islam.

As for TheKai's fears that our actions there will be viewed as empire building in the future...it is being viewed as empire building now by factions on both the left and the right.


Regards,


Steve

 

[GAB]

Gary,

Which "we" are you talking about? The US assistance of Israel came very late in the game, well after Israel had fought several wars for her existence.

PeachMonkey,

I figure we stepped up and got them started again when Pres. Truman signed
the dotted line, creating quite a problem in some circles.

We are a young nation and never really showed any inclination for the world situation until after WW ll...I think considering where it has come and where it is going we were very supportive.

It is a very complex situation and by the way we reelect every couple of years it is a wonder we are still headed down a not so crooked path/\/\/\/\-----/\/\----- left, right, left, middle etc...

Regards, Gary

 

[PeachMonkey]

I figure we stepped up and got them started again when Pres. Truman signed the dotted line, creating quite a problem in some circles.

I'm still not quite sure what you're talking about.

The United States only really seriously began supporting Israel during the 1973 war.

 

[michaeledward]

This little piece deserves a full reading from anyone interested in this thread.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/outrage?bid=13&pid=2106

Since President Bush's now infamous proclamation aboard the USS Lincoln on May 1, 2003, 1,242 US troops have died. Since then, a pattern has emerged. With each new major development--hailed by the President as a decisive step toward freedom--conditions deteriorate further.

"The administration has suggested that Iraq would move closer to stability as it reached one milestone after another," wrote Richard Stevenson in The New York Times. "The capture of Saddam Hussein; the handover of sovereignty and the appointment of an interim government; the deployment of Iraqi security forces; the military campaign to expel the insurgents from strongholds like Falluja; and the first round of elections. Yet most of those milestones have passed with little discernible improvement in the security situation."

"Little discernible improvement" is polite Times-speak for can't-get-any-worse. Take a look at the actual record of Bush's faith-based war.

......


Here's the reality check: As Bush spins delusions, the chaos on the ground has never been dicier. Iraq's Shiite defense minister, Hazem Shaalam, and Iraq's leading Sunni politician, Adnan Pachachi, this week called for a delay in Iraqi elections. Seventy Iraqi security officers--including the Governor of Baghdad Province--and five American soldiers were killed this week in thirteen different attacks. Iraq's national intelligence director, General Mohamed Abdullah Shahwani, says the Iraqi insurgency comprises 200,000 people, overwhelming the US military presence. When asked if the insurgents are winning, Shahwani replied, "I would say they aren't losing."

After lying his way into the war, Bush is now trying to lie his way out of the quagmire. Yet his baselessly optimistic pronouncements have only dug the troops deeper into harm's way.

 

[michaeledward]

Of course, it's not going to well for some Iraqi's either....


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6727646/

Errant U.S. airstrike kills at least 5 near Mosul
AITHA, Iraq - An explosion at a house south of Mosul killed 14 people and wounded five early Saturday, the owner said. The U.S. military confirmed that an air strike hit the building, but said five people died.

During a cordon and search operation to capture an insurgent lead, a U.S. air force F-16 dropped a 500-pound guided bomb in the area south of Mosul on the house intended for search, a military statement said.

"The house was not the intended target for the air strike. The intended target was another location nearby," the statement said. "Responding forces reported that five individuals died in the strike."