An open challenge

[tshadowchaser]

We had some threads on kata before debating if it is good or bad or has any real value, and even if it applies to ground fighting. I will not link to all of those, they can be found by searching, but I do want to explore an area of kata that many may never have tried.
Depending on what you study this may or may not work.

Take your most basic form, and try to perform it with your starting position laying flat on your back. Do you see/find different applications for the moves? Can you see a ground fight now in these moves. Have simple turns become something different?

 

[terryl965]

Yes some of the blocks could be easily turned into armbars and joint locks, as well as kick can become dangerously clever for the face and throat.

 

[bowser666]

I think Kata , forms, etc...... Are necessary in any Martial Art. There are so many benefits from doing them and there are many applications contained therein that are easily modifiable for other situations, ground fighting etc...... People should be so quick to dismiss them because they are physically grapplnig with someone , or punching a bag etc..............

 

[harlan]

Knowing nothing about grappling, or groundwork, it's impossible for me. I suppose individual techniques pulled from kata could be applied/used...but I'm in a quandary as to how to get to the point of application??

As mentioned in elsewhere, kata 'grooves in' body dynamics, and so cherry picking singular techniques doesn't help without existing knowledge of grappling and movement on the ground.

*goes off trying to figure out how to use Saifa head cranks on the ground.....*

 

[marlon]

We had some threads on kata before debating if it is good or bad or has any real value, and even if it applies to ground fighting. I will not link to all of those, they can be found by searching, but I do want to explore an area of kata that many may never have tried.
Depending on what you study this may or may not work.

Take your most basic form, and try to perform it with your starting position laying flat on your back. Do you see/find different applications for the moves? Can you see a ground fight now in these moves. Have simple turns become something different?

i was taught to do this by Soke Cuevas as he taught me naihanchi kata. An extremely useful exercise...especially with a partner.

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[tshadowchaser]

I agree that doing it with a partner opens up the mind to what may be happening
Many of the moves look like one thing from a standing posistion but look like something different fromthe ground

 

[tellner]

...and many movements from typical empty hand martial arts forms simply can not be done or have no application in a ground grappling context.

 

[marlon]

...and many movements from typical empty hand martial arts forms simply can not be done or have no application in a ground grappling context.

yes. Sometimes it is easy to imagine every answer is in one magic form or technique...or style. A systema friend of mine has a great signnature: Training is truth. It is fun to explore and important to our development, as long as we do not elevate our imagination above reality.

marlon

 

[bowser666]

I totally agree Marlon. There isn't one best style etc...... It is a good idea to keep an open mind and be open for multiple techniques and applications.

 

[Guardian]

We had some threads on kata before debating if it is good or bad or has any real value, and even if it applies to ground fighting. I will not link to all of those, they can be found by searching, but I do want to explore an area of kata that many may never have tried.
Depending on what you study this may or may not work.

Take your most basic form, and try to perform it with your starting position laying flat on your back. Do you see/find different applications for the moves? Can you see a ground fight now in these moves. Have simple turns become something different?

As my first instructor always taught me, never, never discount anything in your training for someday, it might have a value to it.

 

[ChingChuan]

Well, I've tried it (jurus 1), but to me it isn't really suitable for ground work... It's rather for taking down an opponent who is standing over you or something. However... Thinking about it, you could use it when someone is lying on top of you... but I don't know whether it's effective. It definitely sounds like something that I'd like to try with a partner, though.

Nice suggestion!

 

[tshadowchaser]

My thinking is that some of the turns in various forms can be seen as change over moves from someone in a mount position and maybe escapes from that position.
I can see arm bars, leg locks, chokes, etc. also but again it depends on what form you are doing

 

[FearlessFreep]

I'm going to go on a limb here

most times where I find "hidden techniques" or other non-obvious applications in forms, it's usually because I already know the technique and I can reverse-engineer it into the form motion. I don't really learn a new application or technique from a form motion; usually I see at best alterations or variations on things I already know. It's easy to see a block/punch as a wrist-escape...if you already know something about wrist escapes, but not if you haven't already been exposed to or grown familiar with those techniques anyway.

As such, I would think that if you do a form on the ground and find ground-fighting techniques in there, well...I'm say that's because you are already familiar with those techniques and your either re-interpreting form motions based on motions you already know, or at best extrapolating from what you already know into maybe some new nuance or variation of something you are already familiar with

 

[allenjp]

I don't have much experience with kata, my experience is watching my son perform his for the Karate class i used to have him in. But my initial opinion is that this would be a way to develop very bad habits for groundfighting. The last thing you want to do on the ground is expose your limbs the way these types of blocks and punches and kicks would on the ground. If you are on the ground and your opponent is standing, the kicks come into play, but they are a different kind of kick.

As for using the turns for escapes, please don't, especially if someone is mounted on you. That is exactly what they want you to do so they can choke you out. If you are going to use a turn of your body to escape a mount from someone who knows what they are doing, you must first have control of that person's limbs. And don't try to punch someone when they are mounted on you, it's one of the fastest ways to end up in an armbar...

 

[FearlessFreep]

As for using the turns for escapes, please don't, especially if someone is mounted on you. That is exactly what they want you to do so they can choke you out. If you are going to use a turn of your body to escape a mount from someone who knows what they are doing, you must first have control of that person's limbs. And don't try to punch someone when they are mounted on you, it's one of the fastest ways to end up in an armbar...

In ground fighting, hip control is all important. There are mechanics that are good tactics when you have someone in your guard that are suicidal when you are mounted, simply because of hip leverage (punching up is a good example).

This is the same in standup fighting Do you meet force with force or do you redirect force? Well, that depends on motions and positions. A step in could be a really good idea, or a really bad idea... depending...

Only thing is, those rules are different when locked up on the ground and you can't step to reposition, for example.

So to echo my earlier point, I don't think you can use standup forms to drill ground fighting unless you already know how to ground fight... a t which point it could be an interesting training tool...

 

[Ybot]

In my opinion forms are a sort of ink blot test, you interpret them in your own way, so I suppose if you look hard enough you can find ground application, but I'm not convinced this is the best training tool, especially with ground techniques which require a different level of kinetic awareness.

I took karate for many years growing up. I learned my kata forward, backward, eyes closed... I still remember most. While I admit that I didn't try it, I have to say that imagining myself on the ground doing these kata just doesn't seem like a good idea. I see a lot of bad habits popping out when I think about it.

 

[allenjp]

In ground fighting, hip control is all important. There are mechanics that are good tactics when you have someone in your guard that are suicidal when you are mounted, simply because of hip leverage (punching up is a good example).

This is the same in standup fighting Do you meet force with force or do you redirect force? Well, that depends on motions and positions. A step in could be a really good idea, or a really bad idea... depending...

Only thing is, those rules are different when locked up on the ground and you can't step to reposition, for example.

So to echo my earlier point, I don't think you can use standup forms to drill ground fighting unless you already know how to ground fight... a t which point it could be an interesting training tool...

You are exactly right about hip control, and that is why I said turning WITH SOMEONE MOUNTED ON YOU, is a very bad idea. You have to have some handles to turn them with you or you're gonna end up right where they want you. When you have them in your guard things are different, and punching is a good example. Punching IS suicide when someone is mounted on you but when they are in your guard it is great.

That's why I think current forms and kata are no good for training groundfighting. The game is completely different down there.

Perhaps someone could come up with some ground kata? Doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility...

 

[tellner]

The only exception I can think of being the bridge. But there you're turning while he's tied to you.

 

[FearlessFreep]

The only exception I can think of being the bridge. But there you're turning while he's tied to you.

Yeah, that's the 'handle' allenjp was taking about..so they are turning while you are turning, so you're not just turning your back to them...

 

[thardey]

If I did my forms on the ground, I would look like a drunken skunk having a seizure.