An Issue of Validity ??

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Cirdan

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Are people really so hung up on the Koryu? I doubt 1 in 20 of the guys I train Karate and JJ with have even heard of the trem. Those that do either have a genuine intrest in history, are experienced enough to be secure in their art or train in one of the Koryu themselves.
 

Chris Parker

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Hi,

You know, when I read the link, what came across to me was someone who trains in a system named very closely to a Koryu system, without actually having experience or ties to one, has used this as a marketing tool, and had to explain the discrepancies once too often. This has lead to the article, which basically says "no, we're not Koryu, we may market ourselves like it, and name ourselves like one, but we're not one (so don't get angry when you find out you're not training one)... but to make you feel better about being mislead, other people do it too!", but fails to actually give any true evidence. It only states names of modern schools with the same names as Koryu systems (I might say I've never heard of the Gendai versions...), with no evidence other than itself - and self-referencing evidence is highly suspect at best.

As for "Why do we care?", well, maybe you don't. It all depends on what you're training for. If you're training for modern self defence, you would probably be better off with something very different. If your interest is historical, then you've probably found your match. But as for one type of Martial system being more "legitimate" than another (Koryu or Gendai), thats a completely different question. And in that regard, I would simply say that any true martial art (and I'll explain that term in a second) is as legitimate as any other.

The issue here is Modern systems passing themselvs off as Koryu, whether deliberately or incidentally. A number of Koryu systms in Japan are classed as National Treasures, including The Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, which is one of the names attributed to a "modern" school in the article. The Katori Shinto Ryu is considered to be one of, if not the oldest extant Martial System in Japan, and to be using it's name is the equivalent of selling your pencil scratchings under the name Picasso. Oh, no, not THAT Picasso, it's just the name I use when I draw (?).

A "true" martial art, I said I would get back to this, didn't I? One of the defining characteristics of a true martial art, and one of the things that seperates each of them out from each other, is that they have a complete underlying philosophical base. Quite a number of Modern systems simply take a bit of boxing for hands, some kicks from Muay Thai, or Tae Kwon Do, maybe a few throws from Judo, or some submission from BJJ, and attempt to hold it all together despite the fact that each different art has it's own philosophy, which may or may not work well with the other arts. Often they are started by an individual who can put it together, mainly because they have their own philosophy which they use as a corner-stone for everything they do, but have a harder time conveying it to students. Some can, and eventually it may become a true art. Hopefully it will, but that is rare.

So that's where the "Issue of validity" comes into it. An attempt to give validity to modern systems by naming them after, or close to, respected older arts, when they may or may not actually have a connection at all. And that is completely invalid.

Oh, and Kreth, check Kin Kudaki in the older version of Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki. Maybe you did learn it somewhere...
 

Aiki Lee

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Hi,


Oh, no, not THAT Picasso, it's just the name I use when I draw .

kind of reminds us of a certain tire fliping individual, doesn't it?

Quite a number of Modern systems simply take a bit of boxing for hands, some kicks from Muay Thai, or Tae Kwon Do, maybe a few throws from Judo, or some submission from BJJ, and attempt to hold it all together despite the fact that each different art has it's own philosophy, which may or may not work well with the other arts. Often they are started by an individual who can put it together, mainly because they have their own philosophy which they use as a corner-stone for everything they do, but have a harder time conveying it to students. Some can, and eventually it may become a true art. Hopefully it will, but that is rare.

My thoughts exactly! How many times have you heard of a guy who dabbles in one art for a while then switches to another, and tries to combine what he has learned to make a new art. It's like learning a little bit about electrical wiring, a little bit about roofing, and a little bit about plubing and then trying to start your own construction company!
 
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jtweymo

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PGSmith said: Since you asked, my opinion is that it was written by someone with no connection to the koryu, that doesn't understand what they are or how they work, but desperately wants to call himself part of it. I've never quite understood some people's fascination with wanting to be seen as a koryu without actually having to be a koryu.

Hi ya guys, and you to PGSmith !!

Actually my reply here addresses the sentiment that PGSmith expresssed in the quote above, I noticed a lot of the posters seemed to be expressing it.

So when I say this, it's just a reply (not a *****, mind ya!)

First off, as indicated both on that page and here in the thread I WROTE THAT PAGE. I was soliciting response to the subject by posting a link to it here. Just to clarify the subject, my signature is at the bottom of the page and my user name is the same: "jtweymo". Just so we are clear about that one! :)

I can understand why folks might make an immediate mistake of thinking some koryu connection was being claimed, themselves, have koryu fascination (nothing wrong with it, good historical schools are worth their weight in gold, so to speak). But the page in question (and indeed, all our material) clearly specifies "gendai from gendai". That's the entire theme.


The point was very much that gendai of this order are very common in and outside of Japan. These schools (and our own, which coincidentally is of the exact same origin, a gendai dojo of that very same gendai ryuha taught under the name Shinden yoshin ryu back in the 1960's) these schools never claim to be koryu or koryu related. The Japanese never ever have a problem with this fact, it's common knowledge to them.

The page was pointing out this Yamato yoshin ryu, Jujutsu as an example of that very same theme.

And pointing out that, under these social conditions, any person who goes to Japan and learns Yamato yoshin ryu, Jujutsu then returns and opens dojos here is subject to the same sentiments and disbelief.

That was sort of the point.

I was trying to point this out and say "What if someone brings this Yamato yoshin ryu, Jujutsu to our country... are we gonna say these things about the Yamato yoshin ryu people?!?"

Eventually, American and British people will probably pick up this Yamato yoshin ryu. Are we going to say... "they are koryu wanna be people"??

It's more than a little insultuous. What if Yamato yoshin ryu comes here and receives this mistreatment?
 

Kreth

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First off, as indicated both on that page and here in the thread I WROTE THAT PAGE. I was soliciting response to the subject by posting a link to it here. Just to clarify the subject, my signature is at the bottom of the page and my user name is the same: "jtweymo". Just so we are clear about that one! :)
Actually, you made no such claim until I hinted that it was your page...
 
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jtweymo

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Oh darn, I just noticed some of you posting are X-kan people.

You are not considering the subject very well. Go and look at your own X-kan webpages that have most recently begun to post info about Yamato yoshin ryu.

Didn't you notice that the Genbukan makes prolific mention of the same ryuha mentioned on the page in question (Hontai yoshin takagi ryu)??

As is often recognized the X-kan schools are not listed as koryu.

The gendai ryuha listed on that page is Hontai yoshin takagi ryu and goes under a proliferation of names that you ought to recognize because the X-kans use all of them in their kans: Takagi ryu, Takagi yoshin ryu, Hontai takagi yoshin ryu, kukishin ryu and so forth.

Even Hatsumi and Tanemura (I mention them respectfully mind you) admit that these are all pretty much the same school, gendai, going by different names. And that they aren't the only ones in Japan who practice or hold these gendai ryuha, they openly admit that many many instructors of this/these gendai schools exist in Japan.

The X-kan forums speak of the same subject and even mention other non-X-kan instructors in Japan who teach and hold these ryuha...

The X-kan pages have already picked up Yamato yoshin ryu: Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo website here, at the bottom of the page: http://www.hanako.co.uk/History/Ryu-Connections.htm

They did so because the Yamato yoshin ryu comes from the same strain of gendai ryuha that gave the X-kan it's Takagi yoshin ryu, Hontai takagi yoshin ryu, Kukishin(-den) ryu and so forth.

They are all renamings of the same school.
 
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jtweymo

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Kreth said: Actually, you made no such claim until I hinted that it was your page...

Hi ya Kreth,

Why did you say that?

The page is clearly signed at the bottom "jtweymo" and the web address is "http://jtweymo.angelfire.com/GENDAI_CORDING.html" and my user name is "jtweymo"... it couldn't have been more clearly marked.

It isn't very correct to imply that I attempted to conceal my identity.. it's marked from head to foot "jtweymo".

Why did you say that?
 

Kreth

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Hi ya Kreth,

Why did you say that?

The page is clearly signed at the bottom "jtweymo" and the web address is "http://jtweymo.angelfire.com/GENDAI_CORDING.html" and my user name is "jtweymo"... it couldn't have been more clearly marked.

It isn't very correct to imply that I attempted to conceal my identity.. it's marked from head to foot "jtweymo".

Why did you say that?

I said it because your OP was phrased as if this was some random page you found:
Have a look at this page here
it takes a little bit of reading.

What's you guys opinion on this subject?
 
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jtweymo

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Hi ya Kreth,

Uhm. Kreth? Every one of you who quoted me began your quote with...

Originally Posted by jtweymo

nice bold type font on "jtweymo" and everything.

The page indicated was signed "jtweymo" quite clearly at the bottom.
The web address has "jtweymo" quite clearly in it.

My username is "jtweymo" the whole thing was clearly marked "jtweymo" from head to foot.

I guess if someobody failed to read the signature at the bottom of the page and/or failed to check out what web address the page was at... they might have missed the fact that I wrote the page linked to.

But I tried to make it quite clear... my second post in the thread (after the introductory) specified: "That was my intent when I wrote the page linked above..."

You're implying that I tried to conceal the fact that I wrote the page in question... when the darned thing is clearly marked from head foot foot, on a website that has "jtweymo" written all over it!!

Come on, that don't hold water. Why badger me?
 

Kreth

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But I tried to make it quite clear... my second post in the thread (after the introductory) specified: "That was my intent when I wrote the page linked above..."
Actually, it was your third, shortly after my post hinting that you were the author of the web page in question.

You're implying that I tried to conceal the fact that I wrote the page in question... when the darned thing is clearly marked from head foot foot, on a website that has "jtweymo" written all over it!!

Come on, that don't hold water. Why badger me?
Not everyone reads the URL when they click a link (or else phishing sites wouldn't be so successful). I would also guess that many people gave up on the page well before the bottom, as the poor formatting and overuse of caps made it annoying to read.
 

Aiki Lee

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Ok, now I'm a little confused.

when you said this : "As is often recognized the X-kan schools are not listed as koryu" doesn't thant ignore the fact the arts are stemmed from koryu, or am I mistaken.

When it comes to martial arts history I'm very interested, so if anyone has anything to say about this I'd like to hear it.
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on a different note, Kreth is right when he says that putting things in caps makes it hard to read. It gives the impression that you're yelling at the reader. I would also suggest leaving out comments like "everyone knows" or "it's common knowledge" because the material you are discussing isn't common knowledge and if it were, you wouldn't have to mention it.
 

pgsmith

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The point was very much that gendai of this order are very common in and outside of Japan. These schools (and our own, which coincidentally is of the exact same origin, a gendai dojo of that very same gendai ryuha taught under the name Shinden yoshin ryu back in the 1960's) these schools never claim to be koryu or koryu related. The Japanese never ever have a problem with this fact, it's common knowledge to them.
You see, this is where part of your confusion grows. Not having much (if any?) contact with actual Japanese within your "Japanese" martial art, you fail to understand that to the Japanese, ignoring something is not the same as having no problem with it. There are a number of schools with names that coincide with those of existing koryu. Most of these are outside of Japan (like yours), although there are some in Japan itself. Most of these came about from a Japanese native that had some experience in a school without having been granted the authority to teach and open a branch of that school. They gathered some students and taught what they knew. Eventually they left, and there's a school with senior students practicing what they've been taught under a particular name, but no connection to the actual source of said name. Occassionally (but far more rare) are those instances where a westerner has lived in Japan for a number of years, and learned an art there. He then started teaching it upon his return home, again without authority or connection to the original art. These schools are pretty much ignored as irrelevant by the heads of the koryu whose names they share. Occassionally there will be issues (such as Fred Lovret's Tenshin ryu) where the head of a koryu group will demand that they cease using the name. Usually though, it's simply ignored.

I was trying to point this out and say "What if someone brings this Yamato yoshin ryu, Jujutsu to our country... are we gonna say these things about the Yamato yoshin ryu people?!?"

Eventually, American and British people will probably pick up this Yamato yoshin ryu. Are we going to say... "they are koryu wanna be people"??

It's more than a little insultuous. What if Yamato yoshin ryu comes here and receives this mistreatment?
If someone brings an art here from Japan claiming to teach such and such art under this that or the other instructor, there will definitely be people that question it. However, if said instructor and dojo starter does have the authority to open a branch dojo, they will simply show that authority was granted, tell the questioner who to contact for more information, and that will be that. Believe it or not, it happens a lot. The vast majority of folks involved in the Japanese arts have full authority by the home dojo to teach what they do, and no problems answering questions about it. And, there will always be people that don't entirely believe those answers for whatever reason. It doesn't really matter that much to the person running the dojo. They have their authority from their own instructor, and what others think is pretty much irrelevant (that's a very Japanese way of thinking as I stated earlier).

What I have to ask Mr. Weymo, is why is this such an issue to you that you have to write articles about it, and then post it here to bring attention to it?
 
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jtweymo

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Hi ya guys,

Kreth... I dunno what else to say to you. But okay.

Himura Kenshin said: Ok, now I'm a little confused.

when you said this : "As is often recognized the X-kan schools are not listed as koryu" doesn't thant ignore the fact the arts are stemmed from koryu, or am I mistaken.

When it comes to martial arts history I'm very interested, so if anyone has anything to say about this I'd like to hear it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

on a different note, Kreth is right when he says that putting things in caps makes it hard to read. It gives the impression that you're yelling at the reader. I would also suggest leaving out comments like "everyone knows" or "it's common knowledge" because the material you are discussing isn't common knowledge and if it were, you wouldn't have to mention it.

Oh I apologize, I wasn't trying to imply less validity to the X-kans. And frankly I defer to whatever those X-kan headmasters would say... I've never heard them imply anything not generally legit. They themselves openly acknowledge that their schools and instruction is not koryu, that it's gendai. But yes, as a genre of martial arts there's relationship to the sources of the koryu schools -- in short, it's a difficult subject since one could say that the koryu are the source, or that the koryu come from the same source. It's subjective to state either way. The remark is identical but presented from two different perspectives.

Oh and on the subject of my writing style... I admit I'm not exactly up on the ultra modern methodologies. I read one of the earlier posters claimed I was using an academic format... no I didn't. It's not a point of contention but some such remarks I find confusing. I will however try to adjust my formatting in the future. However, on the subject of common knowledge... it is and always was. I've been reading on the subject for about 30 years, it was introduced to me by both my martial arts instructors and common martial arts buddies. My point is that it's being properly labeled.


PGSmith said: You see, this is where part of your confusion grows. Not having much (if any?) contact with actual Japanese within your "Japanese" martial art, you fail to understand that to the Japanese, ignoring something is not the same as having no problem with it. There are a number of schools with names that coincide with those of existing koryu. Most of these are outside of Japan (like yours), although there are some in Japan itself. Most of these came about from a Japanese native that had some experience in a school without having been granted the authority to teach and open a branch of that school. They gathered some students and taught what they knew. Eventually they left, and there's a school with senior students practicing what they've been taught under a particular name, but no connection to the actual source of said name. Occassionally (but far more rare) are those instances where a westerner has lived in Japan for a number of years, and learned an art there. He then started teaching it upon his return home, again without authority or connection to the original art. These schools are pretty much ignored as irrelevant by the heads of the koryu whose names they share. Occassionally there will be issues (such as Fred Lovret's Tenshin ryu) where the head of a koryu group will demand that they cease using the name. Usually though, it's simply ignored.


Okay PGSmith, I agree with literally everything you stated in this remark since it's the case most definitetly... but the intro of the remark was way of base (through no fault of your own, other than by lack of familiarity with myself.) I'm not confused on any of these subjects. I don't understand why you imply that there's any confusion on my part. This is just a discussion thread on a limited subject. I'm 46 years old and been studying this school for about 30 years now, started when I was 13 years old. Been practicing it's techniques since I was that age. And what do you mean by a lack of Japanese contact in my 'Japanese' art? Sir, when I was being trained, we had the occassional summer camp and sometimes there were a few Japanese (some identified themselves as judoka, and one or two Okinawan karateka besides -- shorin ryu and isshin ryu. Our summer camps were used to cross train inas well.)
Sometimes they're were Japanese Americans present relatives of the visiting Japanese nationals. It was rare and it was years ago back when I was a kid but it wasn't that unusual?? We used to have pictures of us in group with some of the visiting Japanese. Now don't get me wrong, our school wasn't that organized (it was no big deal mind ya) and I ain't making no special claims here... but we used to get material straight outta Japan all the time: I was the guy who did the translating... so I oughtta know! I dunno what you mean by my being confused, and we didn't particularly lack for Japanese contact. I spent way too many hours doing the translations and not getting paid very much.

But okay.

Otherwise certainly, your remarks on school and instruction customs were right on the money.


PGSmith also said: What I have to ask Mr. Weymo, is why is this such an issue to you that you have to write articles about it, and then post it here to bring attention to it?

Uh-huh. Hmm... I dunno if I'd call it an issue? It's just a little too commonly encountered as a line of contest. Do you understand that the article was about Yamato yoshin ryu? Not about me? About the subject in general?

I posted here for exactly what the inquiry indicated: to solicit the opinion of the guys on this board.

But I get the impression that your inquiry is less of an inquiry and more of an insinuation. Such insinuations are unnecessary. Need I point out that you fellas don't really know me, and don't have any clue what our school practices are?

How can ya make insinuations about what ya don't know.

Before going to such lengths (if ya are, PG, if not: my apologies indeed, sir) I'd better point out that my school and instruction practices aren't anything to complain about. What I mean is that our profile and involvement levels aren't and never were very commercialized. We get this alot, standard jabs against conduct that is presumed without any knowledge or recognition of what conduct does exist on our parts.

Maybe such insinuations aren't effective because we aren't involved in what gets implied. For example, I've been told to stop claiming that we teach a koryu related art when we don't. The persons making these remarks don't know us or our school or our levels of interaction -- so immediately they end up making a demand that we couldn't comply with if we wanted to.

All we can do is attempt to explain their mistaken impression.

Do you get my drift?

Again PGSmith, if I am wrong here about the matter, forgive me.

I didn't mean to accuse you of anything.
 

pgsmith

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... but the intro of the remark was way of base (through no fault of your own, other than by lack of familiarity with myself.)
In that case, I sincerely apologize. I got the impression from your article that your school was only found in the west (U.S.A. ?), and had no actual Japanese hombu or higher level instructors to further your training. Since that's not the case, where is your hombu dojo located?
And what do you mean by a lack of Japanese contact in my 'Japanese' art? Sir, when I was being trained, we had the occassional summer camp and sometimes there were a few Japanese (some identified themselves as judoka, and one or two Okinawan karateka besides -- shorin ryu and isshin ryu. Our summer camps were used to cross train inas well.)
I didn't mean that you've never talked or trained with Japanese. I meant that your instructor and the upper level seniors of your school were not Japanese. Since you've just told me that was wrong, I apologize. However, you seem to have some strange ideas, in my opinion, for having trained under the Japanese for 30 years.
But I get the impression that your inquiry is less of an inquiry and more of an insinuation. Such insinuations are unnecessary. Need I point out that you fellas don't really know me, and don't have any clue what our school practices are?
And thus we return to my question, which I might add you continue to side-step ... why is it such an issue with you? You're now accusing me of "insinuations"? I've no idea what exactly you're talking about, or what "insinuations" you think I may be making. You are the one that came here asking for opinions.
Well, here it is ... My opinion, based upon your article, was that you were either head of, or part of, a Japanese named school with Japanese named techniques and no affiliation with any higher organization or upper level instructors in your school in Japan. I also felt that you probably had no school in Japan that shares your name. You've told me that this was an erroneous assumption on my part, for which I apologized. What the story behind your school happens to be, whether your techniques are devastatingly effective or merely dancing, how much being in your school has enriched your life, these are all questions of which I neither have nor want, truth to tell, any knowledge.

The only thing I asked was why it mattered to you what other people thought? You seem to have gone to great lengths to "defend" yourself even though I've not been able to locate a single attacker.
 
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jtweymo

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Actually PGSmith...

I had entered a rather lengthily reply. The machine ate it and it got lost in the hash.

I started to re-enter the thing and thought better of it.

You say no insinuation whilst you then post that monstrosity?


Ask yourself this question: If one can keep silent and watch another stumble into error... what should you do?

I'll keep quiet and see if the other stumbles.
 

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No one (that I'm aware of) bought in to your initial arguments from the earlier post. Why rehash it now? If you're happy with your own particular creation myth, why must you keep trying to convince us?
 
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jtweymo

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Hello all,

Saitama steve said: Where are the insinuations in that so-called monstrosity? Point them out.

All I saw was logical debate.


Uh-huh, you saw what you wanted to. We both know it.

But okay, I'm game... for the moment.

And only for the moment but you musn't forget the page linked to this thread and what the thread subject is (my behavior makes perfect sense given the thread and the previous posts already made...)


The following from PGSmith's post:
...However, you seem to have some strange ideas, in my opinion, for having trained under the Japanese for 30 years...

I never claimed to have trained under the Japanese for 30 years, only he said that.

...I got the impression from your article that your school was only found in the west (U.S.A. ?)...

The article in question didn't address me at all, it addressed Yamato yoshin ryu and the commonly encountered Japanese gendai ryuha that goes under the various names of Hontai takagi yoshin ryu / Hontai yoshin takagi ryu / Hontai takagi ryu / Takagi hontai ryu / Takagi ryu / Yoshin ryu / Shinto yoshin ryu / Shinden yoshin ryu.

...I meant that your instructor and the upper level seniors of your school were not Japanese. Since you've just told me that was wrong, I apologize....

I never told him that my instructors were Japanese, only he said that. And he knows darned well my instructors were American... so do you, Saitama.

...My opinion, based upon your article, was that you were either head of, or part of, a Japanese named school with Japanese named techniques and no affiliation with any higher organization or upper level instructors in your school in Japan.


Again the article was about Yamato yoshin ryu and in no way addressed me. As far as my school of Jujutsu, I am not the head of the Shinden yoshin ryu and have never claimed to be, nor claimed any particular entitlement of any kind to it. Clearly he's leading me, as are you trying to.



...I also felt that you probably had no school in Japan that shares your name. You've told me that this was an erroneous assumption on my part, for which I apologized...


This is where I drawn the line and say little more. Sometimes to fall silent and allow someone to stumble, if they do, is more expedient. I'll say this much: my rank and title are definetly American, my instructor was American, my dojo was American... and I never implied otherwise to be quite sure.
As for whether or not the Shinden yoshin ryu is still in Japan... the article might give a hint there... but of course it goes under a proliferation of names and always has.


So, you didn't see any insinuations? That's because after he spelled that stuff out, it wasn't an insinuation anymore: it was a direct statement and a bunch of baloney I never said.

I don't give a crap about stuff I never said.

If I didn't say it, it's not my obligation to answer for it.
 

Saitama Steve

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Uh-huh, you saw what you wanted to. We both know it.

Actually, he didn't insinuate as you say. You read insinuations into what Mr.Smith wrote.


The article in question didn't address me at all, it addressed Yamato yoshin ryu and the commonly encountered Japanese gendai ryuha that goes under the various names of Hontai takagi yoshin ryu / Hontai yoshin takagi ryu / Hontai takagi ryu / Takagi hontai ryu / Takagi ryu / Yoshin ryu / Shinto yoshin ryu / Shinden yoshin ryu.

Wait a second. You're mixing lineages yet again, when you know rather well that Yoshin-ryu & Shinto Yoshin-ryu are from the Akiyama Shirobei lines of Yoshin-ryu.

Takagi-ryu (Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu, Hontai Yoshin-ryu and all other variations on the name,) has lineage from Takagi Umanosuke (Which also means some influence from Takeuchi-ryu.)

Try not to mix them up. The differences are humungous.

I might have known your instructors were American, but I'm sure Mr.Smith did not.

Again the article was about Yamato yoshin ryu and in no way addressed me. As far as my school of Jujutsu, I am not the head of the Shinden yoshin ryu and have never claimed to be, nor claimed any particular entitlement of any kind to it. Clearly he's leading me, as are you trying to.

OK, so who is the headmaster of Shinden Yoshin-ryu at this point? Where's the hombu dojo?

I don't give a crap about stuff I never said.

If I didn't say it, it's not my obligation to answer for it.

You wrote the article did you not? You asked opinions, yes? Questions were asked. Since it is your article, it is indeed your obligation to answer.
 

jks9199

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MT has a reputation for being lightly moderated, and friendly. Our members help keep it that way by reading THE RULES and voluntarily complying with them. It's really important to remember to debate the issues and not the person. If you have a problem with a poster, or think that a post has crossed the line and violated one or more of THE RULES, I urge you to make use of the Report To Moderator feature, found at the top right of each post, in a red & white triangular "button." All tickets thus generated are carefully reviewed by the staff for action.
 
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