An interesting realistic read about M.A.

[Hyoho]

Martial arts and the cycle of ******** - Charlie's Diary

Martial arts and the cycle of ********
By Tricia Sullivan
Hello, everyone. Charlie has kindly invited me to post here because I am a science fiction writer. But for the next four guest posts I'm going to be talking about fighting, martial arts, the media, and women. I have a lot to say. In this first post I'll give you an idea of where I'm coming from when I'm talking about fighting.
(Edited to comply with copyright policy; as always, follow links to original article at your own risk -- jks9199, Administrator)​

 

[CB Jones]

It is an infomercial for Steve Morris website and DVDs...written by the websites administrator.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah. We just dragged 5 people from basically off the street into a ring fight.

It is always and interesting experience for me.

It blows a lot of accepted theory out of the water.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

First, I don't think you should post the entire article. Link to it. Copyright and stuff.

Second, I'm reasonably sure this was posted here before.

Third, it makes a big assumption. The assumption is that martial arts training has one purpose, which is fighting.

Fourth, it makes a slightly smaller assumption that 'real' fighting is MMA style, and that therefore everyone should train MMA.

I don't care for it.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

An interesting read, although not really anything new. MMA and UFC fighters/extremists have been saying all that stuff for years. That said, my stance on it is that if you are purely training for "real world combat", unless you are in a profession that exposes you to violence on a regular basis (i.e. police or military) then you shouldn't be getting into lots of fights. You could go through your whole life and have maybe 1-2 real fights. So you are training for years and years and years, putting tons of times and money into it for an event that may never happen. What a waste of time! To me, Martial Arts is about more than just fighting, and the actual fighting part is a very small portion of it all. I pity people who obsess about their "fighting prowess" and worry over how well they will do in a "real fight".

 

[geezer]

I pity people who obsess about their "fighting prowess" and worry over how well they will do in a "real fight".

Agreed.

If you are young, athletic and want to compete, a lot of heavy sparring makes perfect sense. If you are a soldier, LEO, or security professional, realistic training against tough, resisting partners makes perfect sense. If you are a smaller, frail, or older person, who doesn't get into problem situations, perhaps a more balanced approach making martial arts a healthful hobby makes more sense?

As a 5'8", 61 year-old Geezer, I still like to mix it up on occasion ...with friends who can beat me without hurting me too much. I don't need to be able to best a 22 year old MMA competitor or some street thug. That's a fantasy!

Face it, for most people functional self-defense is not about being able beat an aggressor in a physical confrontation. As most of us know, its about awareness, avoidance, de-escalation and escape first. If it becomes physical, you have already messed-up, even if you "win"!

More so where I live. A lot of people here carry guns. Openly or concealed. No license or permit is necessary. Arizona also has very loose laws about knives. But if you actually use a weapon and injure or kill, the law can treat you very harshly. Even in situations you might consider "self-defense". We are also a death-penalty state, and failing that "life with no parole" is a common option in the courts!

 

[Danny T]

She does preface with:
"Most people think of martial arts and fighting as being more or less synonymous. I see them as a Venn diagram of two sets that overlap by a tiny margin. This is because most martial artists don't fight and their training isn't directly based on what happens in a fight."

I can agree with much of that.

 

[Hyoho]

As someone else made a comment on another group: It raises and point out issues with training in a "static" environment.

It also raises questions as to what a violent conflict really is and how a game ("sport") is commonly thought to be reality, which it isn't.

But I would not identify with MMA either. All this stuff has rules, even MMA

 

[jobo]

its just another hatchet job, cleverly weaving negative thought in to peoples head
its like a religion, blind faith
its sexist women made to train with children
high risk of sexual assault
higher ranks of tma begging him for help
black belts being beaten up by beginners
escapist fantasy
impossible to systemise fighting which of course it isn't
running a dojo is burying your head in the sand

all given as true experiences', which they may or may not be. But non actually indicative of tma as a whole.
its what people call a strawman argument. Where you create imaginary weakness and then attack those, rather the actual truth

 

[Midnight-shadow]

its just another hatchet job, cleverly weaving negative thought in to peoples head
its like a religion, blind faith
its sexist women made to train with children
high risk of sexual assault
higher ranks of tma begging him for help
black belts being beaten up by beginners
escapist fantasy
impossible to systemise fighting which of course it isn't
running a dojo is burying your head in the sand

all given as true experiences', which they may or may not be. But non actually indicative of tma as a whole.
its what people call a strawman argument. Where you create imaginary weakness and then attack those, rather the actual truth

I think in all of this we need to make the distinction between a person who is unable to fight, and a system that is unable to fight. As noted in the article, most TMA practitioners don't train their Martial Arts to fight in the "real world", but that doesn't mean the system they are training in is unsuitable for "real world" fighting. It all comes down to the focus of your training that defines whether you can use it in actual combat or not. For example, the Israeli special forces train in Krav Maga for use in actual combat, whereas most civilians don't train this way. Same system, but a completely different focus. A similar thing could be said of the Shaolin Monks. They train purely for performance and fitness purposes, but I'm sure that if they wanted to they could train to use the exact same techniques in "real" combat and be just as effective as any UFC fighter. Just because they don't train to fight in a "real world" scenario doesn't mean their system is useless.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As someone else made a comment on another group: It raises and point out issues with training in a "static" environment.

Only if one insists that training has only one purpose.

It also raises questions as to what a violent conflict really is and how a game ("sport") is commonly thought to be reality, which it isn't.

I don't know anyone who mistakes traditional martial arts training with a real violent conflict.

But I would not identify with MMA either. All this stuff has rules, even MMA

The article is little more than yet another attempted expose of traditional martial arts training, of the "Everything you are doing is wrong" variety. Boring and stupid.

 

[jobo]

I think in all of this we need to make the distinction between a person who is unable to fight, and a system that is unable to fight. As noted in the article, most TMA practitioners don't train their Martial Arts to fight in the "real world", but that doesn't mean the system they are training in is unsuitable for "real world" fighting. It all comes down to the focus of your training that defines whether you can use it in actual combat or not. For example, the Israeli special forces train in Krav Maga for use in actual combat, whereas most civilians don't train this way. Same system, but a completely different focus. A similar thing could be said of the Shaolin Monks. They train purely for performance and fitness purposes, but I'm sure that if they wanted to they could train to use the exact same techniques in "real" combat and be just as effective as any UFC fighter. Just because they don't train to fight in a "real world" scenario doesn't mean their system is useless.

I think we are roughly in agreement, but a few points to emphasise. I think most? artist expect their system to provided defence skills, otherwise they would be doing rumba , all of the tma will provide robust defence skills if you have the physicality to use them, they are more or less useless if you dont. But that is equally true of what ever system you are considering, including what ever this guy is selling.
KM is extremely effective if you are 22 and just passed basic training for the israeli army. Less so if you are 45 over weight , have to sit down to tie your shoe laces and can't climb a flight of steps with out getting out of breath .

 

[jobo]

I think in all of this we need to make the distinction between a person who is unable to fight, and a system that is unable to fight. As noted in the article, most TMA practitioners don't train their Martial Arts to fight in the "real world", but that doesn't mean the system they are training in is unsuitable for "real world" fighting. It all comes down to the focus of your training that defines whether you can use it in actual combat or not. For example, the Israeli special forces train in Krav Maga for use in actual combat, whereas most civilians don't train this way. Same system, but a completely different focus. A similar thing could be said of the Shaolin Monks. They train purely for performance and fitness purposes, but I'm sure that if they wanted to they could train to use the exact same techniques in "real" combat and be just as effective as any UFC fighter. Just because they don't train to fight in a "real world" scenario doesn't mean their system is useless.

I think we are roughly in agreement, but a few points to emphasise. I think most? artist expect their system to provided defence skills, otherwise they would be doing rumba , all of the tma will provide robust defence skills if you have the physicality to use them, they are more or less useless if you dont. But that is equally true of what ever system you are considering, including what ever this guy is selling.
KM is extremely effective if you are 22 and just passed basic training for the israeli army. Less so if you are 45 over weight , have to sit down to tie your shoe laces and can't climb a flight of steps with out getting out of breath .

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think in all of this we need to make the distinction between a person who is unable to fight, and a system that is unable to fight. As noted in the article, most TMA practitioners don't train their Martial Arts to fight in the "real world", but that doesn't mean the system they are training in is unsuitable for "real world" fighting. It all comes down to the focus of your training that defines whether you can use it in actual combat or not. For example, the Israeli special forces train in Krav Maga for use in actual combat, whereas most civilians don't train this way. Same system, but a completely different focus. A similar thing could be said of the Shaolin Monks. They train purely for performance and fitness purposes, but I'm sure that if they wanted to they could train to use the exact same techniques in "real" combat and be just as effective as any UFC fighter. Just because they don't train to fight in a "real world" scenario doesn't mean their system is useless.

If you can use traditional martial arts training to block a head punch and counter, you're a thousand percent beyond the average person on the street. There are street thugs who can fight and like to. I am highly unlikely to ever meet any of them. If that was the reason I trained, I'd carry a gun.

 

[CB Jones]

The article is little more than yet another attempted expose of traditional martial arts training, of the "Everything you are doing is wrong" variety. Boring and stupid.

Disagree

This article is nothing more than an advertisement for SM's new website in an attempt to increase traffic, solicit donations, sell DVDs, generate views to his monetized Youtube videos, and advertise private lessons written by SM's partner and website administrator.

 

[jobo]

I don't know anyone who mistakes traditional martial arts training with a real violent conflict.



.

why ever not, dealing with real real violence is exactly what they were designed to. If I have to be critical of traditional arts as they are trained in 21st century Western countries, its that they are not traditional enough . The pain, effort and physical commitment have been watered down to fit the soft life styles we all enjoy. People want things but arnt prepared to put the effort in to truly achieve them, so they end up with a watered down copy

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Disagree

This article is nothing more than an advertisement for SM's new website in an attempt to increase traffic, solicit donations, sell DVDs, generate views to his monetized Youtube videos, and advertise private lessons written by SM's partner and website administrator.

Ah. I somehow missed that. Thanks!

 

[Midnight-shadow]

If you can use traditional martial arts training to block a head punch and counter, you're a thousand percent beyond the average person on the street. There are street thugs who can fight and like to. I am highly unlikely to ever meet any of them. If that was the reason I trained, I'd carry a gun.

The system I train in contains 3 different blocks that could block a head punch and if I wanted to I could have someone punch me in the head over and over until I learned to block it every time. But then what would be the point if I never had to use it in a real fight? I am fortunate to live in a pretty safe area and avoid situations that could get me into trouble, so chances are i'll never have to use such a technique for real.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The system I train in contains 3 different blocks that could block a head punch and if I wanted to I could have someone punch me in the head over and over until I learned to block it every time. But then what would be the point if I never had to use it in a real fight? I am fortunate to live in a pretty safe area and avoid situations that could get me into trouble, so chances are i'll never have to use such a technique for real.

I live in a pretty safe area also, but near a not-so-nice one, and I have to drive through part of it on my may to and from the dojo. If my car broke down or I got into a fender-bender, I might find myself in a bad situation.

However, my point was and remains - anyone who had trained seriously in most styles of martial arts is worlds ahead of anyone who had not and who is not also a good street fighter. It is not just 'better than nothing' it's way better than most things. Just being able to block the most commonly-thrown punch (the haymaker) and counter is a huge advantage in terms of self-defense.

When people tell me that they want to learn self-defense only, and in the shortest possible time, I tell them to take boxing lessons. It's good for that. Really good.

As to why learn blocks I will never use? Who says I will never use them? And who says they are for self-defense only? You'd be amazed at the lessons learned along the road to learning really good blocks which have nothing to do with martial arts.

 

[Hyoho]

I live in a pretty safe area also, but near a not-so-nice one, and I have to drive through part of it on my may to and from the dojo. If my car broke down or I got into a fender-bender, I might find myself in a bad situation.

However, my point was and remains - anyone who had trained seriously in most styles of martial arts is worlds ahead of anyone who had not and who is not also a good street fighter. It is not just 'better than nothing' it's way better than most things. Just being able to block the most commonly-thrown punch (the haymaker) and counter is a huge advantage in terms of self-defense.

When people tell me that they want to learn self-defense only, and in the shortest possible time, I tell them to take boxing lessons. It's good for that. Really good.

As to why learn blocks I will never use? Who says I will never use them? And who says they are for self-defense only? You'd be amazed at the lessons learned along the road to learning really good blocks which have nothing to do with martial arts.

Well I got into a bit of trouble for streets fight before I did MA. Never really looked at it as defence. More of a release valve to work things off that turned into a cultural pursuit.

Where I live now is nice. I am in mountain jungle. Everyone walks around with machetes. It's used as tool. But they won't hesitate to draw it if there is trouble and still carry them when they are drunk. Also, a lot of crime here now is perpetrated after they have taken crystal meth. So you need some stopping power.

Two friends shot dead by riding in tandem shooters within seven months, one a retired marine because they upset locals. Riding in tandem cost 200 USD or less. That's the way they deal with things nowadays.

I have been set on in a dark alleyway late at night in the city by two and dealt with it. But what I did I would not classify as MA. There was nothing artistic about it. No referee and no rules.

My best defence is a big smile and not make enemies in the first place.