An interesting phone call today

[RyuShiKan]

I decided to settle an argument that was on another thread that was just closed.

The basic argument was whether a certain member of this BBs was really an 8th dan in Pangainoon.

I made a phone call to Pangainoon Honbu Dojo in Okinawa to investigate.

The first question I asked was if they new of the afore mentioned member of this board.

Me: “Do you have an American 8th dan in your Pangainoon system named xxxxx xxxxxxx or have you ever heard of him?”

Pangainoon Honbu: “No, he is not an 8th dan member of our organization and no we have never heard of him.”

Me: “I see. Is there anyone in the Pangainoon system America or the West that could promote someone to an 8th dan?”

Pangainoon Honbu: “No, we are a rather small organization and have no members abroad that could do that. All testing for that grade would have to take place here in Okinawa.”

 

[Don Roley]

Hi,
I stumbled across this basically because I am bored and my wife is using the TV to play the latest version of Final Fantasy. It did not take long to find the thread that was recently closed and see that the individual in question is "David" (Mya Ryu Jitsu) who claims eighth dan, but refused to give Ryushikan the name of the person who gve him the rank because he claims to not like his attitude.

I offer my help if both parties will accept it. I do not practice karate and have no stake in the matter what so ever. If David wishes to give me the info to contact his teacher and confirm his story, I will do so and report back what I learn. Ryushikan can remain in ignorance as to the teacher's identity.

If however, I am not able to confirm the story, then I will report that back as well. The burden of proof is on those making the claims, and if someone is claiming to have been promoted to eighth dan, I honestly can not see any reason why he or she can not give the name of the teacher that gave them that rank.

I will be honest in saying that I tend to believe Ryushikan more than the person who has refused to publically back up the claims he has made in a public forum. But I will be fair and since I have no stake in the matter and can communicate in Japanese, I think I can help help make the situation clear one way or another.

I just hope that I am not met with some poor excuse or accusation.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Don,

Thanks for the kind offer and under normal circumstances I would accept.
However, since deception and evasion seem to be the trademarks of the person in question I will have to decline.
He could easily give you the name of a friend that could pretend to be this ever-elusive “master”.
I will take the Pangainoon Honbu’s word for it that there is nobody in the Us or West that is qualified to certify someone as an 8th dan in their system.


By the way, any meetings at the “Chubliner’s” in Shinjuku lately?

 

[chufeng]

RSK,

Here is the CV of MRJ...
You're right, he doesn't indicate WHO promoted him, just that he was promoted...

At any rate, I didn't know if you saw this the last time it was up.

quote: Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
1972 - began Uechi-ryu and trained to Green belt. Due to changes in the systems hierarchy in Okinawa different factions spit off. Continued on in Pangai-noon off shoot as well as boxing [Grandfather was Golden gloves].

1980 - First Dan.

1983 - Second Dan.

1986 - 3rd Dan, taught military personel Incirlik AB, Turkey. Brad Barnett my Instructor.

1988 - 4th Dan, taught military personel Mcguire AFB, NJ. Instructor James Hill.

1990 - Began training in Shuri Te under Bob Harmer. American off shoot of Shuri Ryu. Began Academy. Began working on the unnamed ZDW system in ernest.

1993 - 5th Dan Pangai-noon A.J. Leverett. First Dan Shuri Te. E.P. Training K.C. Poulin & Ed Wilson. Chemical weapons Instructor O.C.S.O.

1995 - 2nd Dan Shuri Te. Began teaching the as yet unnamed system of ZDW to off duty LEO's. Began training in Chin Na under R. Wilson

1996 - Police D.T. Instructor [John Dressback S.P.P.D.], Police Firearms Instructor J.J. Webber P.C.S.O.], Police Emergency Preparedness Instructor.

1997 - 6th Dan Pangai-noon.

1998 - 3rd Dan Shuri Te.

1999 - Israeli Instinctive Shooting Instructor [Hunan Yadin].

2000 - 4th Dan Shuri Te. Trained under Tony Blauer [S.E.P.S.I.].

2001 - 7th Dan Pangai-noon. Edged weapon Instructor [Sir Peter Boatman]. High Liabilty Instructors-Only seminar with Joe Hess& Tony Lambria [Lead D.T. Instructor for F.L.E.T.C.]. Began training in Catch-as-Catch-can Submission wrestling under G. Long [who trained under Matt Furey].

2002 - Krav Maga practioner [Moti Horenstein], Official recognition of ZDW system. KYHA Florida representative. 5th Dan Shuri Te Michael Dunn. Martial Arts Association of Asia Hall of Fame inductee.

2003 - 8th Dan Pangai-noon. Worldwide Alliance of Martial Artist's Hall of Fame Inductee[Law Enforcement Trainer of the Year].

As I stated earlier the 8th was probably a mistake as it was rushed and I should have been content with 7th as I'm no longer active in teaching this system. But thats 20-20 hindsight. Overall I am satisfied with everything. Looking forward to enhancing things

Interesting that he was recently considering changing the name to Pangainoon Jitsu, yet claims he no longer teaches Pangainoon.
Whatever

I think he probably is a decent fighter with some real world experience, but a traditional martial artist? Not.

:asian:
chufeng

PS: I doubt that beating a dead horse will get very far, he clearly indicated (at length) that he has no intention to reveal his teacher's name.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng
I think he probably is a decent fighter with some real world experience, but a traditional martial artist? Not.

I couldn’t say since I have never seen him in action.
For all I know he could be some teenager using Daddies computer.

 

[Matt Stone]

RyuShiKan is my friend. I consider him to be one of my best friends, and especially one of the closest people I know within martial arts circles. He has been a teacher, mentor and friend in the short time I have known him.

I simply want to say that, despite what some who are on the wrong side of his posts may wish to believe about his personality, he is far from being an "angry" or intolerant person. He is simply very outspoken, and refuses (as do I, and most of the other MAists I know) to sit back and allow those who are blatantly presenting themselves to be something they are not.

Now, if some folks take offense to the position that if they are making claims in public they need to be prepared to provide proof and evidence, then it leads me to believe that they know, at some level, that they have something they don't want made public... Whether it is a ranking issue, a "lineage" issue, or something else, they have skeletons that they want to remain secret for on reason or another.

It's a put up or shut up kind of thing, really. If we were all in a room in person, rather than on an internet forum, I suspect several folks would walk up to people making extravagant claims, and ask for proof.

And if that proof was not forthcoming, everyone in the room would know what the truth was...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Jill666]

I think we already know.

What I don't understand is why people claim to be something they are not. If you have studied for years, and still study, if you have some life experience and are a truthful person, then why isn't that enough?

Nobody knows everything, which is why we are here- to share the stuff we know and learn the stuff we don't. :shrug:

You know, if people spent half the energy they spent lying and covering their tracks on learning what they don't know, they might actually be what they claim.


:soapbox:

My humble f***ing opinion.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Jill666
I think we already know.

Just wanted to make the statement publicly. It has been said that the Yili folks tend to "gang up" on folks. Nah. We just take our loyalties very seriously. RSK is not a Yili person (in the strict sense of the term), but he is my friend. And I don't take folks making incorrect statements about my friends very lightly... :angry:

What I don't understand is why people claim to be something they are not. If you have studied for years, and still study, if you have some life experience and are a truthful person, then why isn't that enough?

Y'know, I couldn't tell you... When I was in Japan, I made it a point to let everyone know I was just a lowly shodan (and later, nidan), and that I didn't know very much at all. Interestingly enough, they didn't care, and they were satisfied with learning what they could from me. There was a local instructor that, depending on the day, claimed either 6th dan, 8th dan, or "grandmaster" title, and his class was pretty much run out of existence by mine... A lowly ol' 1st dan.

Why?

Personally, I think it had as much to do with the fact that I didn't BS anyone about my background as it did with the fact that the other guy's class content was crap.

Nobody knows everything, which is why we are here- to share the stuff we know and learn the stuff we don't. :shrug:

No, nobody knows everything, but there are some folks whose egos really require recognition that they know nearly everything.

You know, if people spent half the energy they spent lying and covering their tracks on learning what they don't know, they might actually be what they claim.

:soapbox:

My humble f***ing opinion.

You'd think... Then again, there have been folks I've run into, here on MT, on E-budo, on KFO, and in real life, that are far more concerned with collecting spiffy patches and belts, NASCARing up their uniforms, and making money from their mini-mall school than they were with really learning any MA of quality. Go figure.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
He is simply very outspoken, and refuses (as do I, and most of the other MAists I know) to sit back and allow those who are blatantly presenting themselves to be something they are not.

This board is for the friendly discussion of the martial arts. While one is welcome to question a member's background, and to point out that this background may be suspect if that is what one believes, refusing to allow someone to behave in a certain way on our board is not acceptable. In this case we have repeatedly indicated that, because of the obvious stalemate, this matter should be taken to e-mail. If a resolution is achieved there, it would be quite reasonable to post about it. Otherwise, it would be friendly to agree to disagree.

There are other boards that are appropriate for an argument like this. But on MartialTalk, this type of repeated call for credentials is unwelcome. Perhaps E-Budo would be a more appropriate place as this involves a claim about an Okinawan art; I don't know if they would want it there or not.

We realize that the intention here is to prevent others from studying with what some feel is, potentially, a fraudulent instructor, and to maintain the value of legitimately granted rank. Those are worthwhile causes. But we are all called to different ministries, as they say, and this one is not MartialTalk's. We want friendly discussion of the martial arts--not repeated bickering over who studied with whom and whether their rank is legitimate or not.

It's a put up or shut up kind of thing, really.

No. It's a "Our dojo, our rules" kind of thing.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[chufeng]

Hi Jill...

This weekend, I started teaching two new students the short YiLi version of the "simplified-24 step" TaiJi...

They asked what they should call me...

I responded "sifu" (simply put, it means teacher...sort of the equivalent of sensei)...

One of them commented that she viewed "sifu" as an old man with a long white beard...(they are both Chinese)

They asked Matt Stone (Yiliquan1) what they should call him...he said "Matt"

Although I change the color of my belt (sometimes white, sometimes yellow, sometimes black, etc.) each week, with the sole purpose of de-emphasizing rank, I have held on to the title of teacher...but, I am beginning to think Matt was right and I was wrong.

I've always said that we are all students...some just further along the path...if that is so, why do we have titles???

Now, my teacher would certainly have plenty to say about it (tradition, not withstanding)...he is the one who "imposed" rank on us in the first place (can I say that?)...with rare exception, all of the YiLi seniors could give a mouse-fart about rank...

...at any rate, I am just unloading some of the thoughts I've had since yesterday's training...maybe I'll just be "chufeng" fdrom now on....or, Mark....

Later.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[chufeng]

Arnisador,

We realize that the intention here is to prevent others from studying with what some feel is, potentially, a fraudulent instructor, and to maintain the value of legitimately granted rank.

That is the intent...but I have to agree that pursuing a circular argument really goes nowhere...

The silence from the one who made the original claim speaks loudly...At this point, I don't really care whether he posts an answer or not...those who have followed this "saga" already have an opinion

I don't begrudge MRJ...as I've said, he probably is a decent fighter...just not a traditional martial artist...and he really should just stick to English when naming his art and title...there would be much less confusion...but, he has made his choices...time will tell whether they were good choices.

His work with disadvantaged children is a highly commendable endeavor...but that is marketing, and not related to the issue that has been exhaustively discussed here...I am sure that he is a decent man and an honorable man...but, in trying to gain legitimacy, he casts doubt on the very thing he seeks...

You are right, this is an area for friendly discussion and e-mail is probably the place to take this from this point forward...but RSK's input and his desire to keep the legitimate arts pure is also an honorable cause...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by arnisador
This board is for the friendly discussion of the martial arts. While one is welcome to question a member's background, and to point out that this background may be suspect if that is what one believes, refusing to allow someone to behave in a certain way on our board is not acceptable.

While I know the call has come several times in the past, I know that, from my own perspective, allowing people with questionable backgrounds to post, especially after their backgrounds have been called into question, simply makes the case against them that much stronger... In the past, I have had some unpleasant dealings with a few folks on MT. I have buried the hatchet on one, another guy was banned, another guy I let bury himself with his nonsensical posts, and the other guy I simply leave alone and others make their own judgements.

And at some point, calling someone out to prove their background, no matter the format of the proof, is going to get unfriendly. It just isn't "neighborly" to tell somebody that you think they are a big wad of cow dung and you want them to show the world just how stinky their past really is. You can phrase it nicely enough, but it still boils down to the same thing - unless, of course, the other person doesn't take it personally and has nothing to hide (which was the case with the person with whom I eventually buried the hatchet).

In this case we have repeatedly indicated that, because of the obvious stalemate, this matter should be taken to e-mail. If a resolution is achieved there, it would be quite reasonable to post about it. Otherwise, it would be friendly to agree to disagree.

While the origination of this post stems from that battle, I have two thoughts... For the one person with the stones to ask the question publicly, there are likely to be many more with the same question (but are either too fearful or polite to ask). Secondly, should said resolution be posted? I would think and hope so, no matter which direction it goes. If the person's background is vindicated by the proof, it needs to be posted. If it isn't, it needs to be posted as well (since not doing so exposes others to vicitimization by fraud).

There are other boards that are appropriate for an argument like this. But on MartialTalk, this type of repeated call for credentials is unwelcome. Perhaps E-Budo would be a more appropriate place as this involves a claim about an Okinawan art; I don't know if they would want it there or not.

You are the Mod. I bow to your rules. However, at what point does the desire to remain friendly expose board members to fraudulent instructors and their wily schemes with no protection whatsoever? I understand that it is impossible to police everyone... There will always be frauds and scam artists that fall through the cracks. But at some point we need to start policing ourselves. I understand the Mods may not be either in a position to do it, or the people to do it, but those of us in the rank and file in a position to do some research can. I stay away from it because the stated purpose of MT is to remain "friendly." At the same time, there is a forum devoted to frauds and bad martial arts right here on MT... Perhaps it is an issue of posting the info, posting the questions, in the wrong forum section? :shrug:

We realize that the intention here is to prevent others from studying with what some feel is, potentially, a fraudulent instructor, and to maintain the value of legitimately granted rank. Thos are worthwhile causes. But we are all called to different ministries, as they say, and this one is not MartialTalk's. We want friendly discussion of the martial arts--not repeated bickering over who studied with whom and whether their rank is legitimate or not.

Perhaps the repeated bantering by both parties has been enough on this one issue. But, like flame wars about anything else, given the revolving nature of forum membership, the same issues (on the same people or not) are bound to return. People will post, people will be questioned, people will refuse, people will be taken to task on bogus or conflicting information, and the Mods will have to get involved again. Just the nature of the Beasties - martial arts and internet forums...

Posted by Yiliquan1
It's a put up or shut up kind of thing, really.

Posted by Arnisador
No. It's a "Our dojo, our rules" kind of thing.

Here I will most respectfully disagree wholeheartedly. No matter the art, no matter the culture from which it stems, there are certain hallmarks of authentic instruction. One of those is the ability to prove one's legitimacy. Frauds tend to talk big, but waver on the ability to follow through. Some folks are good fighters, and that is enough to authenticate their claims. In cases of paper claims, however, the only resolution is the substantiation of what is being alleged. Then it is an issue of being able to produce or not. Put up, or shut up. It has nothing to do with "our dojo, our rules." Just a call for folks to back up what they claim to possess. If I said I could don a cape and fly like a bird, would you (in the plural sense) believe me, or would you want proof? Same thing here. If I kept stating in public that I could fly, but refused to demonstrate it, folks would just "know" that I was full of it, and they would walk away... Same thing here, except in the case of MA, folks aren't always smart enough to walk away, and they sometimes believe things that go against common sense because they just don't know any better.

Anyway, in other news...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by chufeng
Hi Jill...

This weekend, I started teaching two new students the short YiLi version of the "simplified-24 step" TaiJi...

They asked what they should call me...

I responded "sifu" (simply put, it means teacher...sort of the equivalent of sensei)...

One of them commented that she viewed "sifu" as an old man with a long white beard...(they are both Chinese)

They asked Matt Stone (Yiliquan1) what they should call him...he said "Matt"

Although I change the color of my belt (sometimes white, sometimes yellow, sometimes black, etc.) each week, with the sole purpose of de-emphasizing rank, I have held on to the title of teacher...but, I am beginning to think Matt was right and I was wrong.

I've always said that we are all students...some just further along the path...if that is so, why do we have titles???

Now, my teacher would certainly have plenty to say about it (tradition, not withstanding)...he is the one who "imposed" rank on us in the first place (can I say that?)...with rare exception, all of the YiLi seniors could give a mouse-fart about rank...

...at any rate, I am just unloading some of the thoughts I've had since yesterday's training...maybe I'll just be "chufeng" fdrom now on....or, Mark....

Later.

:asian:
chufeng

First, my adherence to just going by my name is my own private indulgence to nonconformity and rebellion. I live a life dicated by rules and regulations, many of which I find confounding, assinine, and downright unnecessary. Most of them are okay, but constricting nonetheless.

So when I get the chance to have a say in what happens in my life, something that nobody can really influence other than me (like how someone refers to me), then I go for it.

Chufeng, you are our teacher here, locally. I admit I have trouble calling you "sifu," because in my mind Sifu is "sifu," which I guess makes you "shixiong" (like one of the newcomers wanted to call me). But because they are not students of Sifu's, that makes you Sifu to them, like you are to Wormtail and "the Other Mark."

Stick with Sifu. At least during class/training time. It wouldn't be right any other way.

Or not. Hell, you outrank me, so do what you want...

I'm still just Matt, the "little fatty."

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[chufeng]

OK,

Little Fatty...

I am not your Sifu...your primary teacher IS Sifu P. Starr...I just happen to be colocated with you...all of your training, up to a year ago was under Sifu Starr or other sensei...

I am your older brother because we have a common teacher.
BUT, you also have a ton of stuff to show me...should I call you Sifu?

But, again, why all of the titles ?

I think I'm going to down-grade myself to just "chufeng."

For those that don't don't know (I guess that is most of you) chufeng means bamboo wind...philosophically that name fits me very well...those who know me best say that a bamboo wind is that which eminates from the south end of a north bound panda... and I guess that fits me too...because for all I say, I may be absolutely wrong on all of it...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by chufeng
OK,

Little Fatty...

I am not your Sifu...your primary teacher IS Sifu P. Starr...I just happen to be colocated with you...all of your training, up to a year ago was under Sifu Starr or other sensei...

I am your older brother because we have a common teacher.
BUT, you also have a ton of stuff to show me...should I call you Sifu?

The day that I deserve that title is the day that I will start questioning the validity of the qualifying criteria for deserving that title!

But, again, why all of the titles ?

To quote Master Lee from Black Sash - "Tradition."

You are the teacher of a new student. To them, you are Sifu. You are my Older Brother (in Mandarin, shixiong) here, but the head instructor... It would be appropriate for me to call you Older Brother, but confusing to some of the non-Mandarin speaking students, so I just refer to you in class as sifu so as not to rock their boats too much (they have enough on their minds as it is).

I think I'm going to down-grade myself to just "chufeng."

If we were in Japan, I could guarantee you an uphill battle. Even though I told my students not to refer to me as sensei, they still did. Even after I pointed out examples of Japanese MA teachers in Japan telling their students (who were older than them, which was often the case of my students - most were at least a year older than me, if not several years older) that it was inappropriate by Japanese culture standards to refer to them as sensei, they still insisted.

But that was Japan.

We live in the US, so the entire title thing is going to be completely mixed up, and if you just go by your name or nickname, it will screw them up even worse. Titles are okay, as long as the correct instruction in their use is given. When folks don't know how to use the titles they hear around the school, then their misuse is iminent.

Or not. Hell, you outrank me, do what you want!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

However, at what point does the desire to remain friendly expose board members to fraudulent instructors and their wily schemes with no protection whatsoever? I understand that it is impossible to police everyone... There will always be frauds and scam artists that fall through the cracks. But at some point we need to start policing ourselves. I understand the Mods may not be either in a position to do it, or the people to do it, but those of us in the rank and file in a position to do some research can. I stay away from it because the stated purpose of MT is to remain "friendly." At the same time, there is a forum devoted to frauds and bad martial arts right here on MT... Perhaps it is an issue of posting the info, posting the questions, in the wrong forum section?

Here is the thing....there is research, and there is 'beating it to death'. After a certain point, you need to step back and let the evidence or lack there of speak for it self.

To continue to hound, pursue and vendettaize a situation, defeats the purpose of this board. It then decends to the point of a small 'elite' passing judgement, and that I will not allow.

If there are questions on an individuals qualifications, ask them. Give the other side to respond or to not respond. If you believe his 43rd degree in woodworking isn't valid, put up the info. Call those in the know, trace back lineages and get the facts as you can find them. Use the 'horror stories' (I'm renaming it soon) forum for that means. If the person is a poster here, put a 'Hey, question on credentials' type post in their main forum, and then point them at the main discussion in the bad budo forum.

I am not one to evaluate ones worthyness or credibility. I can research all day, but can't judge yet if they 'got the moves'. Many of you do.

Put your information up, and let others make their own decisions. This board is for the discemination of information, not to try and judge those in the arts.

Roberts to be commended for how much he cares about the arts. The problems usually occur when it seems to get personal. I for one couldn't call Japan or any Asiatic country...language barrier is the biggest issue there.

Self policing is a good thing.

One thing to remember, people remain silent for many reasons. Sometimes its to hide. Sometimes its because they simply do not want to get involved in the pissing matches that almost always occur. Often times, its out of instructor loyalty. The reasons vary.

You do have to give folks a little slack. Sometimes, they are honorable.

:asian:

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I couldn’t say since I have never seen him in action.
For all I know he could be some teenager using Daddies computer.

My point exactly how could you judge someone who you have never seen in action, my sensai chooses not to disclose to you because no matter what he says or does you will not believe him YOU ARE IGNORANT and you seem to enjoy attacking other people, in my opinion you are a very insecure person and have to belittle others to make yourself look better. I would pay to put you up and fly you to florida just to watch Mya Ryu Jitsu kick your *** in a friendly sparring match!

You do add some valuable info to this site, but you are ignorant and have little respect for things you do not know, sounds to me that you have much envy toward Mya Ryu Jitsu and if you grow up any time soon you may realize he that chooses not to put that info on martial talk because it wouldnt matter what he posted you would find a way to tare his proof apart so why even bother.

I also feel that maybe its time for you to find someone else to f#ck with as most members are getting sick and tired of your sh#t



Just in case I forgot to mention you are A IGNORANT DUMB *** why dont you find somthing better to do with your time.

 

[Disco]

Reading Chefung's post that listed the background of MyaRyuJitsu, it stated that it was an off-shoot of Pangracoon or whatever. Looking at his website and from his posts, he states he has ties to Europe and the Middle East and America. My question is: Is it possible that his ranking came from another Organization not from Okinawa? I know there's lots of countries that have there own versions of different styles that "ORIGINATED" from the far east and also have their own ranking authorization. If this is the case, I for one would not have knowledge of any name(s) that would be referenced. The same holds true if the name(s) were from the other side of the world. I say this to RyuShiKan as an example, and with NO DISRESPECT INTENDED. You state your background and lineage. There is no easy way for me to prove or disprove the validity of your statement. I either accept or reject at face value, until something would trigger me to think otherwise. The one thing that I have learned about the Martial Arts in General, is that there is way too much dissension. Kenpo people can attest to that. I can understand the position that RyuShiKan has taken, but if what I stated above should be correct (ranking), would that in anyway change anyone's opinion or position?

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Disco
Reading Chefung's post that listed the background of MyaRyuJitsu, it stated that it was an off-shoot of Pangracoon or whatever. Looking at his website and from his posts, he states he has ties to Europe and the Middle East and America. My question is: Is it possible that his ranking came from another Organization not from Okinawa? I know there's lots of countries that have there own versions of different styles that "ORIGINATED" from the far east and also have their own ranking authorization. If this is the case, I for one would not have knowledge of any name(s) that would be referenced. The same holds true if the name(s) were from the other side of the world. I say this to RyuShiKan as an example, and with NO DISRESPECT INTENDED. You state your background and lineage. There is no easy way for me to prove or disprove the validity of your statement. I either accept or reject at face value, until something would trigger me to think otherwise. The one thing that I have learned about the Martial Arts in General, is that there is way too much dissension. Kenpo people can attest to that. I can understand the position that RyuShiKan has taken, but if what I stated above should be correct (ranking), would that in anyway change anyone's opinion or position?

Disco,
I doubt it would change anyones mind they are much to ignorant!






I forgot to mention above I feel much better now.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Here is the thing....there is research, and there is 'beating it to death'. After a certain point, you need to step back and let the evidence or lack there of speak for it self.

Which is exactly what I try to do, in this particular situation and others. You can only play the back and forth game for so long. Personally, in the case of one guy a while back, I just got tired of tearing apart his posts - I got too bored with his endless gibberish to keep fighting. Folks got the message anyway.

To continue to hound, pursue and vendettaize a situation, defeats the purpose of this board. It then decends to the point of a small 'elite' passing judgement, and that I will not allow.

I can appreciate that. Seriously. That isn't what I think anyone here really wants. The Inquisition was cool to belong to, but uncool to run up against, if you get me...

If there are questions on an individuals qualifications, ask them. Give the other side to respond or to not respond. If you believe his 43rd degree in woodworking isn't valid, put up the info. Call those in the know, trace back lineages and get the facts as you can find them. Use the 'horror stories' (I'm renaming it soon) forum for that means. If the person is a poster here, put a 'Hey, question on credentials' type post in their main forum, and then point them at the main discussion in the bad budo forum.

Thanks for the clarification. In my own pursuits, I will do exactly that. :asian:

I am not one to evaluate ones worthyness or credibility. I can research all day, but can't judge yet if they 'got the moves'. Many of you do.

Put your information up, and let others make their own decisions. This board is for the discemination of information, not to try and judge those in the arts.

Amen.

Robert's to be commended for how much he cares about the arts. The problems usually occur when it seems to get personal. I for one couldn't call Japan or any Asiatic country...language barrier is the biggest issue there.

He surprises me sometimes. I have never been told the extent of his contacts, nor have I ever asked (didn't care), but I have seen the results of some of his inquirires, and when I found out where they came from... Wow.

Self policing is a good thing.

We just have to remember not to "Rodney King" it, I guess...

One thing to remember, people remain silent for many reasons. Sometimes its to hide. Sometimes its because they simply do not want to get involved in the pissing matches that almost always occur. Often times, its out of instructor loyalty. The reasons vary.

You do have to give folks a little slack. Sometimes, they are honorable.

:asian:

Agreed. Thanks for reminding me.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: