Aikido vs anything?

Wildcarde

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Hi all. I just started training aikido here in L.A...I'm one of those guys who, in the past, trained a couple months with this style, a couple of THAT style, and so on. From what I've seen at this early point, aikido is quite effective. I honestly think people who are always dissing other people's styles as ineffective have been watching too many martial arts movies, and have rarely, if ever, been in a real fight. they think if you're not flying through the air, or waving chucks around like bruce lee, then it's no good. my personal experience is, a real fight lasts a minute or 2 and it's over. get in, harmonize with opponents energy, basically get him to defeat himself. get out. sounds like practical aikido to me.
 

Aiki Lee

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Honestly I bet most fights last even less time than that. especially if you know what you are doing.

It always comes down to what you are training for and how committed you are to making it work right. If you train unrealistically then your skill is for crap in an actual fight, but you can take anything and make it work if you apply it correctly and train properly.
 

Mike Hamer

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Just wanted to say a few things.
1. That video was awesome
2. Please dont come on the aikido forum saying it doesnt work LOL
3. I miss aikido, it was my first art, and maybe I will get back into it when I move to Texas.
 

chinto

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im sure it does work great in the dojo but wrist and standing arm locks are hard enough to apply with strikes and to set them up and are impossible to do so in real life without.

i dont want to offend and if you do it for fun or what ever fine but dont confuse it a practical fightin art.


Oh I think you will find like any art, it works. a good practitioner can show you that it does.
 

rogersouthbay

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Aikido training of UNDSS
(United Nations Department of Safety and Security) personnel at the regional headquarters for the UN in South America - ECLAC / CEPAL - in Santiago, Chile.


These UN personnel are absolutely wasting their time when they really should be training either Karate, MMA fighting or Muay Thai so that they can "practically" defend against guns and knifes.
 
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Jenna

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Aikido training of UNDSS
(United Nations Department of Safety and Security) personnel at the regional headquarters for the UN in South America - ECLAC / CEPAL - in Santiago, Chile.


These UN personnel are absolutely wasting their time when they really should be training either Karate, MMA fighting or Muay Thai so that they can "practically" defend against guns and knifes.
Why do you think Karate, MMA or MT would be better options for UN personnel?
 

K-man

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Aikido training of UNDSS
(United Nations Department of Safety and Security) personnel at the regional headquarters for the UN in South America - ECLAC / CEPAL - in Santiago, Chile.

These UN personnel are absolutely wasting their time when they really should be training either Karate, MMA fighting or Muay Thai so that they can "practically" defend against guns and knifes.
Against guns and knives any style of martial art is going to struggle. Chances are if you engage you will be injured and you may die. If I could pick a couple of styles to defend against this type of attack I would not be choosing MMA or Muay Thai as these are sports. Most MMA fighters have a good knowlege of grappling, most probably with BJJ. BJJ would be an option as would ju jutsu. I wouldn't feel comfortable with karate either, as you normally see it practised. Many karate instructors I know teach additional skills to combat knives and other weapons. Personally, I have included aikido in my instruction for SD as it works beautifully in combination with karate.

I consider Aikido to be most appropriate as a practical defence assuming you have learnt from a knowledgeable instructor.

Perhaps chinto said it best: "Oh I think you will find like any art, it works. A good practitioner can show you that it does."

Interesting to see that you spent three years training Aikido yet obviously you feel that it is ineffective. :asian:
 

rogersouthbay

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Interesting to see that you spent three years training Aikido yet obviously you feel that it is ineffective. :asian:

Sorry for creating confusion here. I only wanted to see what the thread owner has to say about UN Security personnel training Aikido. Hopefully, he realizes the efficiency and practicality of Aikido after watching the clip.

I am temporarily pausing my Aikido training and just started Wing Chun a month ago. I feel more and more fascinated by many important fundamentals shared by these two arts, especially the concept of developing a proper body structure and using that body structure as a base to confront incoming force.
 

Jenna

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Sorry for creating confusion here. I only wanted to see what the thread owner has to say about UN Security personnel training Aikido. Hopefully, he realizes the efficiency and practicality of Aikido after watching the clip.

I am temporarily pausing my Aikido training and just started Wing Chun a month ago. I feel more and more fascinated by many important fundamentals shared by these two arts, especially the concept of developing a proper body structure and using that body structure as a base to confront incoming force.
I see :) I think the thread is slightly aged and the original poster has potentially disappeared to some other part of the internet by now though I may be proven otherwise and they may awaken from their slumber, crank open their sarcophagus door and regale us all with interesting information about martial arts n stuff :D.

Yes, what you posted, it is interesting to know that Aikido is deployed in this kind of security role. I had no idea. Neither do I have an idea the extent to which hand-to-hand combat is trained in military and auxiliary forces and but to me, were an unarmed fighting system utilised at all, Aikido is as good as any and were direct engagement not sought and but rather deflation of a situation, then I would say it is arguably better than other arts and so thank you for posting this.

I am interested to know what is your own view on the subject? And if it is ok to ask, why you are pausing Aikido while you train WC? Do you prefer the one over the other?
 

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I made friends with a guy that trained in Aikido, who in turn was interested in Okinawan GoJu kata. Our talks sparked an interest in me and we would meet once a week for over a year. I taught him kata, while he extracted what he perceived to be techniques, he in turn trained with in his art. This was a very rewarding time for both of us as we learned much, as we trained the arts together. Eye opener indeed...........
 

rogersouthbay

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I am interested to know what is your own view on the subject? And if it is ok to ask, why you are pausing Aikido while you train WC? Do you prefer the one over the other?

Great question, Jenna. In fact, i have asked myself the same, and the biggest reason for me was "curriculum" in Aikido training, where you always train with a partner, and it seems to me that is the only way to really grow. Yes, training with all types of partners is fantastic and i enjoyed a lot, and this makes Aikido probably the most practical art of all, teaching how to properly measure and control the distance between your opponent and yourself. Coping with fighting distance alone can yield a great advantage in real situation, i think.

But, on the other hand, i think, Aikido does not have much resources for training by oneself. Yes, Aikido has Ikkyo-undo or rowing excercise as a solo training, but to me, it wasn't really much help. Now with Wing Chun, training system is equally weighed for both solo and partner drills. I am just getting started, and I really don't know about how exactly the solo forms will help me along the way. Many WC Grand masters say Siu Lim Tao alone, can teach you all the essences of Wing Chun. Similar case with my very limited Tai Chi experience... i must confess i grasped the Aikido concept of keeping one-point from Tai-Chi solo forms.

Don't get me wrong, i still love Aikido, and someday i hope i can resume my training.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments, Jenna, and have a great weekend!!
 

Jenna

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I made friends with a guy that trained in Aikido, who in turn was interested in Okinawan GoJu kata. Our talks sparked an interest in me and we would meet once a week for over a year. I taught him kata, while he extracted what he perceived to be techniques, he in turn trained with in his art. This was a very rewarding time for both of us as we learned much, as we trained the arts together. Eye opener indeed...........
I think there is a lot to be learned from practitioners of dissimilar arts to our own. I wonder sometimes why there is so much antipathy even here on forums like this when there is so much mutually useful knowledge to be had. I understand what some refer to as dilution of a supposedly pure art (as if there were such a thing) and but when it comes to defending oneself, the more knowledge the better. And so then do you recall any of those Aikido moves at all my friend?

Hopefully your pal never coerced you into growing a ponytail or a grand beard before he taught you Aikido? For certain brands of Aikido it is practically written in the syllabus and I should prefer you without either! :)


Great question, Jenna. In fact, i have asked myself the same, and the biggest reason for me was "curriculum" in Aikido training, where you always train with a partner, and it seems to me that is the only way to really grow. Yes, training with all types of partners is fantastic and i enjoyed a lot, and this makes Aikido probably the most practical art of all, teaching how to properly measure and control the distance between your opponent and yourself. Coping with fighting distance alone can yield a great advantage in real situation, i think.

But, on the other hand, i think, Aikido does not have much resources for training by oneself. Yes, Aikido has Ikkyo-undo or rowing excercise as a solo training, but to me, it wasn't really much help. Now with Wing Chun, training system is equally weighed for both solo and partner drills. I am just getting started, and I really don't know about how exactly the solo forms will help me along the way. Many WC Grand masters say Siu Lim Tao alone, can teach you all the essences of Wing Chun. Similar case with my very limited Tai Chi experience... i must confess i grasped the Aikido concept of keeping one-point from Tai-Chi solo forms.

Don't get me wrong, i still love Aikido, and someday i hope i can resume my training.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments, Jenna, and have a great weekend!!
Plainly with any martial art, training with others is essential, though it is not always practical every day I understand what you are saying. I am somewhat ignorant of WC (besides a poor form bong sau which I was taught and countless Ip Man and Ip Man II viewings lol) and but is the weighting of solo training and partner training really 50/50? And you spar also like randori or free-fighting?

You are correct though, Aikido is nigh impossible to learn alone. The feel for a technique cannot be acquired any other way than by a hand on. There are however bo and jo forms which are possibly a little further along the line. I recall one of my early senseis used to practice his atemi outside when his lady wife was having one of her days and he would strike against not a wooden dummy and but a wooden garage door which he almost had off its hinges. Yes though, I think it is a common view often repeated that Aikido is a soft art. Of course there are many who believe the UN are a correspondingly soft organisation. Personally I think both viewpoints, while having something of the truth in them are far from full descriptions.

Aikido and WC though is a combination that might take a deal of time to meld together properly if you were doing them simultaneously so I understand that you are taking a hiatus from the one to train the other. Though I have always thought that being fluent in more than one art would surely have its benefits. Me I am pure Aikido, not burly enough to be hitting the mook jong :)

And but best of luck with your training in whatever direction it takes! Bon week-end to you also :)
 

mook jong man

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I think there is a lot to be learned from practitioners of dissimilar arts to our own. I wonder sometimes why there is so much antipathy even here on forums like this when there is so much mutually useful knowledge to be had. I understand what some refer to as dilution of a supposedly pure art (as if there were such a thing) and but when it comes to defending oneself, the more knowledge the better. And so then do you recall any of those Aikido moves at all my friend?

Hopefully your pal never coerced you into growing a ponytail or a grand beard before he taught you Aikido? For certain brands of Aikido it is practically written in the syllabus and I should prefer you without either! :)



Plainly with any martial art, training with others is essential, though it is not always practical every day I understand what you are saying. I am somewhat ignorant of WC (besides a poor form bong sau which I was taught and countless Ip Man and Ip Man II viewings lol) and but is the weighting of solo training and partner training really 50/50? And you spar also like randori or free-fighting?

You are correct though, Aikido is nigh impossible to learn alone. The feel for a technique cannot be acquired any other way than by a hand on. There are however bo and jo forms which are possibly a little further along the line. I recall one of my early senseis used to practice his atemi outside when his lady wife was having one of her days and he would strike against not a wooden dummy and but a wooden garage door which he almost had off its hinges. Yes though, I think it is a common view often repeated that Aikido is a soft art. Of course there are many who believe the UN are a correspondingly soft organisation. Personally I think both viewpoints, while having something of the truth in them are far from full descriptions.

Aikido and WC though is a combination that might take a deal of time to meld together properly if you were doing them simultaneously so I understand that you are taking a hiatus from the one to train the other. Though I have always thought that being fluent in more than one art would surely have its benefits. Me I am pure Aikido, not burly enough to be hitting the mook jong :)

And but best of luck with your training in whatever direction it takes! Bon week-end to you also :)

I don't believe they can be melded together to be perfectly honest , Wing Chun techniques work because of the Wing Chun stance.
Without the proper stance to energise and stabilise the movements , the force will have to be generated by brute strength which is limited by how much muscle the practitioner has .
One of the principles of Wing Chun is minimum use of brute strength.
Also incoming force will not be able to be absorbed properly and tranferred down through the stance and into the ground.

In regards to the training the Sil lum Tao form can be thought of as the chassis of a car , it provides the structure for the techniques.

The next form Chum Kiu is like putting an engine in the car , it teaches the practitioner to move the body as one unit to generate striking power and be able to redirect heavy force , this is achieved through locking upper and lower body together at the waist and pivoting or careful coordination of stepping with arm movements.

It also introduces the concept of multiple vectors of force applied at once , an opponent may be able to resist one force vector , but resisting two becomes a very difficult proposition.

The third empty hand form is like putting a turbo charger onto our car engine this form is performed a lot faster than the previous two forms and in a lot of ways abandons the rules and concepts established in the earlier two forms.
The arms cross over the centreline and the upper body initiates the pivoting movements rather than having the body unified at the waist like in the previous form.

Some people think of it as the emergency form used for when there are multiple opponents or when one of your arms is otherwise incapacitated.

These forms are practiced endlessly especially the first one , later on the wooden dummy is introduced in order for the student to hone correct positioning , transferring their body weight into the dummy correctly and generally applying all the concepts learned in the earlier forms , its not about smashing the crap out of the arms like you see in a lot of movies.

The wall bag is another piece of equipment used for solo practice , basically a single or three section square of canvas typically filled with rice , sand , ball bearings , grain etc and this is mounted on the wall.

This can be used to train short range striking power , has a conditioning effect on the knuckles but mainly teaches the student to focus and relax and learn to deal with the recoil from their strike thus strengthening their stance.

But if a partner is available then the student will engage in Chi Sau where the students arms are in contact at the wrists executing the structures of Tan sau , Fook sau and Bong sau.
This exercise further develops the stance , develops hand speed , forward force in the arms , teaches the arms to act independently , but most of all it develops sensitivity .

Chi sau can be likened to having a large spinning ball held out in front of you , as the opponent makes contact with this spinning sphere his force is redirected off to the side .
The structures of Tan sau ,Fook sau and Bong sau can be used to redirect this force in any direction depending on where the force is coming from and where it wants to go.

From the gentle exercise of Chi sau you can start Chi sau sparring , this where attacks are random and things can become quite violent with lightning fast hand strikes flying and lots of hand trapping taking place.

The students are probing for a weakness in the shield provided by the shapes used in Chi sau , looking for a gap to strike through , trying to take advantage of any force that is not directy targeted at their centreline.

Training is also done out of contact range and in our lineage is called random arms and legs where the student must deal with any random attack be it arm , leg or grapple based attacks.
 
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Jenna

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Thank you my friend, that is an interesting post!

I think you are correct yes. Aikido and WC do appear on the surface at least to be quite disparate arts. Having said that though I am pleasantly surprised that from your explanation there do seem to be a number of similarities if you can bear with me and understand that I know nothing of Wing Chun and but have picked up some things from your clear description.

One of the principles of Wing Chun is minimum use of brute strength.
Yes I like that. This principle is true also of Aikido, as I believe it is of some other arts.

Also incoming force will not be able to be absorbed properly and tranferred down through the stance and into the ground.
I have to say, I find this really interesting. Wing Chun's transferrance of force is different to Aikido. So with WC you are saying that incoming force is redirected through your grounded stance and downward into the earth, yes? That is cool. Aikido will rotate the force around the aikidoka sending it away at a tangent.

In regards to the training the Sil lum Tao form can be thought of as the chassis of a car , it provides the structure for the techniques.
I do not believe Aikido has the same core technical structure of WC as a framework for subsequent techniques. However in Aikido (and this is just me thinking) I might suggest that an equivalent to WC's fundamental form would be correct stance and combative distance relative to uke. In training, while ki is at Aikido's core (I will mention that later) I would set the former stance and positioning as fundamental. I would try to encourage a sound understanding of this principle in beginners as it is imperative for all subsequent techniques to hold any effectiveness. This is true of larger throwing techniques and smaller joint manipulating techniques. It is not the same idea as Sil lum Tao in WC and but I am just trying to contrive similarities :)

The next form Chum Kiu is like putting an engine in the car , it teaches the practitioner to move the body as one unit to generate striking power and be able to redirect heavy force , this is achieved through locking upper and lower body together at the waist and pivoting or careful coordination of stepping with arm movements.

It also introduces the concept of multiple vectors of force applied at once , an opponent may be able to resist one force vector , but resisting two becomes a very difficult proposition.
This is also very interesting thank you. This second WC form which is borne out of the first I might equate to the Aikido application of balance. In Aikido it is key to understand not only one's own shifting balance through the technique and combinations and but also that of uke. Once we are trained to the level that uke's tip point / break point can be accurately predicted, it is possible to move him and place him wherever he is desired. I am intrigued to know that the concept of multiple vectors is also common to both arts. In Aikido, movements are seldom along a single vector and but utilise instead spirals, rotations and reverses and returns in large and small circles. I find that interesting too.

The third empty hand form is like putting a turbo charger onto our car engine this form is performed a lot faster than the previous two forms and in a lot of ways abandons the rules and concepts established in the earlier two forms.
The arms cross over the centreline and the upper body initiates the pivoting movements rather than having the body unified at the waist like in the previous form.

Some people think of it as the emergency form used for when there are multiple opponents or when one of your arms is otherwise incapacitated.
I think the third form in WC or the "turbo" as you have descriptively put it, I would equate in Aikido to the deployment of ki (which as you know is common to many arts not just Aikido). The use of ki in Aikido is to take what I call a "flat" technique and, using the former two areas (stance and balance) together with available incoming inertia and any developed centripetal force, to turbocharge the technique and thus uke's motion. This, when practiced correctly has the power to move an opponent with great vigour.

I think the wall bags and the wooden dummy are where our techniques diverge. While atemi is central to Aikido in all its variants, it is more often used as an entry to a technique rather than a technique per se. Subsequently many schools will not expend much effort in its teaching. I do though. And but nowhere near to the extent it is trained in Wing Chun. I have seen the size of some WC practitioners' knuckles! Wow.

I think the solo training is another aspect of the two arts which are uncommon. I like the idea of training with bags and the dummy and but in Aikido this is impractical.

Still, I am pleased that though the two arts Wing Chun and Aikido are far from cousins, there are some commonalities (at least as I see it). I hope you are not offended by this or anything. I am just happy to spot little parallels and thank you for your post :)
 

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I’ve trained a lot of Aikido and a little Wing Chun. This is just my take on the two systems: Both systems have the “block” and strike at the same time concept. Both systems run around their opponent’s energy but through different techniques. The aikido player may evade/block and strike at the same time but then finalize the opponent with a throw or joint lock/pin. On the most part a Wing Chun player may evade/block and strike at the same time but then will follow up with more strikes to finish off there opponent. Wing Chun sometimes employs Chin Na techniques (grappling joint locks). I’ve seen Wing Chun Sifu use joint locks that are very similar Aikido techniques. For example I’ve seen variations of kotegaeshi, ikkyo, nikkyo, and jiju-nage performed by Wing Chun Sifu. Although it seems these Chin Na moves in Wing Chun are not primary moves, they prefer to strike the center line to end the fight fast. In Aikido these joint locks are really primary moves that are practiced daily.

Wing Chun has a handful of empty handed and weapons forms which are great for solo practice. It gives you a solid chuck of info to work on in solo practice. Many Aikido schools have great weapons forms, but the empty handed techniques really don’t have forms. After training long enough in Aikido you could string individual techniques together in solo practice to make a free flowing form.

Wing Chun players usually try to capture the center line, so strikes can be delivered. Aikido players usually get off the center line to avoid strikes and break their opponent’s balance so a throw or joint lock van be employed. In an Aikido class since there are a lot of throws being done, the Aikido players learns how to roll and fall without hurting themselves.

Wing Chun has a delivery system called Chi Sau or Sticky Hands practice. This Chi Sau practice with your partner teaches the Wing Chun player sensitivity without sight, but by touch, proper timing of technique and a host of other benefits. Aikido (except for Tomiki Aikido) does not have competitions, but on the other hand at a certain level Aikido players will not just comply with their partners moves if they are grossly incorrect. Some may say Aikido does not have a delivery system, but in my opinion years of hard training in Aikido makes up for this. Some say Aikido takes longer to get proficient at. This may be so since there is lack of a delivery system. It has been said by an Aikido master that aikido is too dangerous for competitions. If you remove the dangerous techniques from Aikido, it may just become similar to Karate and Judo. Aikido is successfully used by law enforcement around the world, so it is very effective.

To sum it up, Wing Chun and Aikido have some slight similarities, but they are very different in many ways. I’m not saying what system is better, they are just different.
 

Jenna

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To sum it up, Wing Chun and Aikido have some slight similarities, but they are very different in many ways. I’m not saying what system is better, they are just different
Yes, I am absolutely in agreement with this. I would say the two arts have slight similarities and but many parallels. As to which art is best, the art that is best is the art that is best for any particular person :)

Wing Chun has a handful of empty handed and weapons forms which are great for solo practice. It gives you a solid chuck of info to work on in solo practice. Many Aikido schools have great weapons forms, but the empty handed techniques really don’t have forms. After training long enough in Aikido you could string individual techniques together in solo practice to make a free flowing form.
I would not want to argue the semantics as I know exactly how you mean it here and I would agree, in Aikido there do not exist the same kinds of predetermined individual kata as seen in many other arts. While there are fixed forms to be practiced with someone else, the solo practice in Aikido is as you say limited to the later phases of training with for example the long or short staff. Wing Chun definitely has the advantage when it comes to being able to practice solo :)

Wing Chun has a delivery system called Chi Sau or Sticky Hands practice. This Chi Sau practice with your partner teaches the Wing Chun player sensitivity without sight, but by touch, proper timing of technique and a host of other benefits. Aikido (except for Tomiki Aikido) does not have competitions, but on the other hand at a certain level Aikido players will not just comply with their partners moves if they are grossly incorrect.
Yes, I am familiar with sticky hands drills. And again it is nice to be able to draw parallels from two so apparently disparate arts as Wing Chun and Aikido. While in Aikido that same movement sensitivity is not explicitly taught, I have trained my aikidoka using a similar method that I stole from the Tai Chi push hands. Obviously WC sticky hands is much more opening-seeking and strike based and but you are still seeking sensitivity and ultimately the ability to predict the opponent and exploit that. I think that degree of motion detection is not common to many arts. I am pleased you mentioned that, thank you! :)
 
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