Aikido and other arts

Mider

Blue Belt
Joined
May 15, 2012
Messages
259
Reaction score
47
Do you train Aikido with other arts to make it work on the streets?
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
14,361
Reaction score
3,897
Location
San Francisco
I dont train aikido, but I will just make an observation.

In modern times it is extremely common that people have trained in more than one system, even if only for a brief time before moving on. If someone trained in karate, for example, and then abandoned it for aikido, then Likely that karate training continues to influence how his aikido is done, even if unintentional. Everything that we have done, affects all that we do, in some way.

So really, the only people who could completely answer no would be those who have only ever trained aikido.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
14,361
Reaction score
3,897
Location
San Francisco
Another observation of mine: do people really think to themselves, Im training this thing that simply does not work, so Im going to go cross-train in something else that does work, that I can then use to fix and make this non-working thing work色

If someone really felt that what they trained does not work, and they want to train in something that they can make work, would they not simply abandon it and go train something else altogether, perhaps whatever they might have cross-trained and then used to fix it?

It just seems like a lot of mental (and physical) gymnastics to go through to justify continuing to do something, if you simply do not believe in it to begin with.
 
OP
M

Mider

Blue Belt
Joined
May 15, 2012
Messages
259
Reaction score
47
Another observation of mine: do people really think to themselves, Im training this thing that simply does not work, so Im going to go cross-train in something else that does work, that I can then use to fix and make this non-working thing work色

If someone really felt that what they trained does not work, and they want to train in something that they can make work, would they not simply abandon it and go train something else altogether, perhaps whatever they might have cross-trained and then used to fix it?

It just seems like a lot of mental (and physical) gymnastics to go through to justify continuing to do something, if you simply do not believe in it to begin with.
Thats not the point of the thread...aikido doesnt teach how to punch and other things usually so why not cross train

Plenty of people make aikido work, secondly kicking and punching people isnt always the best thing to do, it can lead to lawsuits and arrest.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
14,361
Reaction score
3,897
Location
San Francisco
Thats not the point of the thread...aikido doesnt teach how to punch and other things usually so why not cross train
I understand that punching and kicking is not typically seen in aikido, although I also understand that it can be, and Ueshiba said it should be. But then your statement here is assuming that people decide it doesnt work, so they train something that they believe does work, to fix something that does not work, and make it work. Perhaps people doing aikido believe that it does work, and the somewhat unique approach to conflict that is found in aikido has merit in its own way, so why would they feel cross training is necessary? I think the thought process here does not make sense.

By way of example, I train a kung fu method that is heavy on punching. We tend to not engage in grappling, although it is my firm belief that the concepts upon which our method is built, could apply well in grappling. At any rate, I dont feel that I need to cross train in other systems, including grappling, to make my system work. It isnt broken. It does not need to be fixed. Within the unique approach to combat that my system takes, there is plenty that works quite well.

However, I have trained other methods in the past, and as I stated above, all that we have done continues to influence all that we do, whether it is intentional or not. So there is a grain of salt in the mix.

Getting back to aikido, I suppose a wide interest in martial methods could encourage a person to train in other methods that he then finds is helpful in understanding his aikido. But that is kind of accidental and to his benefit. To suddenly have that extra point of view that strengthens his aikido. But that is different from setting out to find a way through cross training, to fix aikido. I cant read peoples minds, but it seems to me if someone felt aikido needed to be fixed, they would simply stop doing it altogether if other martial options that they feel better about, are available to them.

So that gets to your original question: Do you train aikido with other arts, to make it work on the street. I think the logic there does not make sense.

You acknowledge below that aikido does work

Plenty of people make aikido work, secondly kicking and punching people isnt always the best thing to do, it can lead to lawsuits and arrest.
Im sure plenty of people do make aikido work. Ive met a few who I am sure are very capable with it. Im not sure how that first comment connects with the second one, about lawsuits and such.
 
OP
M

Mider

Blue Belt
Joined
May 15, 2012
Messages
259
Reaction score
47
I understand that punching and kicking is not typically seen in aikido, although I also understand that it can be, and Ueshiba said it should be. But then your statement here is assuming that people decide it doesnt work, so they train something that they believe does work, to fix something that does not work, and make it work. Perhaps people doing aikido believe that it does work, and the somewhat unique approach to conflict that is found in aikido has merit in its own way, so why would they feel cross training is necessary? I think the thought process here does not make sense.

By way of example, I train a kung fu method that is heavy on punching. We tend to not engage in grappling, although it is my firm belief that the concepts upon which our method is built, could apply well in grappling. At any rate, I dont feel that I need to cross train in other systems, including grappling, to make my system work. It isnt broken. It does not need to be fixed. Within the unique approach to combat that my system takes, there is plenty that works quite well.

However, I have trained other methods in the past, and as I stated above, all that we have done continues to influence all that we do, whether it is intentional or not. So there is a grain of salt in the mix.

Getting back to aikido, I suppose a wide interest in martial methods could encourage a person to train in other methods that he then finds is helpful in understanding his aikido. But that is kind of accidental and to his benefit. To suddenly have that extra point of view that strengthens his aikido. But that is different from setting out to find a way through cross training, to fix aikido. I cant read peoples minds, but it seems to me if someone felt aikido needed to be fixed, they would simply stop doing it altogether if other martial options that they feel better about, are available to them.

So that gets to your original question: Do you train aikido with other arts, to make it work on the street. I think the logic there does not make sense.

You acknowledge below that aikido does work


Im sure plenty of people do make aikido work. Ive met a few who I am sure are very capable with it. Im not sure how that first comment connects with the second one, about lawsuits and such.
No, my point was that aikido is an art you use after learning other arts...the founder of Aikido was Already an expert in other arts.

Fine, thats great, others might say that one day you could run into a judo or BJJ guy who will just take you down and choke you out...but as you said it doesnt mean your arts useless.

Its not fixing aikido...its just adding to what aikido lacks by itself. If Im a pro boxer and go into the UFC get arm barred and learn wrestling Im not fixing my boxing..Im adding to my game.

if you were to engage me in a fight and injure me I could possibly sue you, if you simply locked my hand or fingers i wouldnt be injured too bad as if I received a broken nose, face, etc...
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
11,367
Reaction score
4,129
Another observation of mine: do people really think to themselves, Im training this thing that simply does not work, so Im going to go cross-train in something else that does work, that I can then use to fix and make this non-working thing work色

If someone really felt that what they trained does not work, and they want to train in something that they can make work, would they not simply abandon it and go train something else altogether, perhaps whatever they might have cross-trained and then used to fix it?

It just seems like a lot of mental (and physical) gymnastics to go through to justify continuing to do something, if you simply do not believe in it to begin with.
I'm glad you brought this up. I really don't like the term "Make it work." when applied to martial arts. The term assumes that something is broken, but the truth is often that the person doesn't understand it.

I makes sense to ask "Do you take an similar martial arts to help improve your understanding of functional Aikido. Sometimes other systems have information that helps to fill in the gaps of another system.

Plenty of people make aikido work, s
If Aikido works for plenty of people. They probably aren't "Making it work" they are probably doing it correctly and with a high level of understanding of the techniques.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
14,361
Reaction score
3,897
Location
San Francisco
No, my point was that aikido is an art you use after learning other arts...the founder of Aikido was Already an expert in other arts.
Well, the founder created his aikido based on his prior experiences. I would say that every single martial method that is created is done that way. They do not spring forth fully formed from a vacuum. A founder of a martial method does not do so without first becoming experienced in martial methods. All martial arts were based on something ancestral to it. The fact that the founder based it on prior training, does not mean that today aikido only works if you have a prior background first. By that logic, one could say that Tae Kwon Do, or Shotokan, or Shaolin Longfist, or BJJ only work if you already have other training. I think we all know that is not true.

Fine, thats great, others might say that one day you could run into a judo or BJJ guy who will just take you down and choke you out...but as you said it doesnt mean your arts useless.
Sure, they might. The results could go either way.

Its not fixing aikido...its just adding to what aikido lacks by itself. If Im a pro boxer and go into the UFC get arm barred and learn wrestling Im not fixing my boxing..Im adding to my game.
If you feel that aikido lacks something, then it sounds to me like you are trying to fix it by adding to it. Perhaps what you are trying to add does not fit within the methodology and the approach to combat that is uniquely aikido. Maybe aikido is perfectly fine for what it is and for what it is meant to accomplish. Maybe you are trying to make it into something it was never meant to be. I can pound a nail with a screwdriver, but it does not work very well. But a screwdriver was never meant to pound a nail. If I make a screwdriver look more like a hammer, have I fixed the screwdriver?

Boxing works perfectly well in the boxing ring, for which it is designed. If you want to compete in MMA, then you need to learn something else. But that is not a shortcoming of boxing. And boxing can translate quite well into street self defense. Nobody needs to train other things to make boxing work.
if you were to engage me in a fight and injure me I could possibly sue you, if you simply locked my hand or fingers i wouldnt be injured too bad as if I received a broken nose, face, etc...
Well sure, it depends on circumstances. But how does that have anything to do with whether aikido works or not?
 
OP
M

Mider

Blue Belt
Joined
May 15, 2012
Messages
259
Reaction score
47
Well, the founder created his aikido based on his prior experiences. I would say that every single martial method that is created is done that way. They do not spring forth fully formed from a vacuum. A founder of a martial method does not do so without first becoming experienced in martial methods. All martial arts were based on something ancestral to it. The fact that the founder based it on prior training, does not mean that today aikido only works if you have a prior background first. By that logic, one could say that Tae Kwon Do, or Shotokan, or Shaolin Longfist, or BJJ only work if you already have other training. I think we all know that is not true.


Sure, they might. The results could go either way.


If you feel that aikido lacks something, then it sounds to me like you are trying to fix it by adding to it. Perhaps what you are trying to add does not fit within the methodology and the approach to combat that is uniquely aikido. Maybe aikido is perfectly fine for what it is and for what it is meant to accomplish. Maybe you are trying to make it into something it was never meant to be. I can pound a nail with a screwdriver, but it does not work very well. But a screwdriver was never meant to pound a nail. If I make a screwdriver look more like a hammer, have I fixed the screwdriver?

Boxing works perfectly well in the boxing ring, for which it is designed. If you want to compete in MMA, then you need to learn something else. But that is not a shortcoming of boxing. And boxing can translate quite well into street self defense. Nobody needs to train other things to make boxing work.

Well sure, it depends on circumstances. But how does that have anything to do with whether aikido works or not?
My point was that no one art has the answer, the biggest martial artists I know have rankings in multiple arts.

Im not a fighter so I wouldnt know

I already discussed this
 
OP
M

Mider

Blue Belt
Joined
May 15, 2012
Messages
259
Reaction score
47
So you've made up your mind and it doesn't matter what evidence to the contrary anyone provides.
I think there's a word to describe that sort of mindset...
One An article isnt exactly some ground breaking evidence though...I mean I can look up videos of his students
 
OP
M

Mider

Blue Belt
Joined
May 15, 2012
Messages
259
Reaction score
47
Delete
 
Last edited:

Rich Parsons

A Student of Martial Arts
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Oct 13, 2001
Messages
16,124
Reaction score
641
Location
Michigan
if you were to engage me in a fight and injure me I could possibly sue you, if you simply locked my hand or fingers i wouldnt be injured too bad as if I received a broken nose, face, etc...

Small Joint locks are breaks if done at speed and with people resisting.
Large joint locks are breaks or dislocations as well, with a minimum of hyper extension.
 

Rich Parsons

A Student of Martial Arts
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Oct 13, 2001
Messages
16,124
Reaction score
641
Location
Michigan
So you've made up your mind and it doesn't matter what evidence to the contrary anyone provides.
I think there's a word to describe that sort of mindset...

Dunning Krueger with no common sense?
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
14,361
Reaction score
3,897
Location
San Francisco
My point was that no one art has the answer, the biggest martial artists I know have rankings in multiple arts.

Im not a fighter so I wouldnt know

I already discussed this
I dont follow what your message is. I have rankings in multiple arts, for what its worth. Not that that makes me anyone special.

What does it mean for an art to have the answer? all arts do, in their way and according to their methods.

If you are saying that no art has every conceivable technique, then I suppose you are correct but it depends on what we are talking about. A thoughtfully devised martial system isnt a collection of techniques. It is built upon a set of functional principles that are expressed through techniques. As such, they give one the flexibility to do whatever you want with those principles, once you thoroughly understand them. Conceivably, one could come up with any technique and apply it, although that isnt exactly realistic. But in that sense, a system constructed in that way, IS complete.

If a martial art is just a collection of techniques, then no, it is not complete.
 
OP
M

Mider

Blue Belt
Joined
May 15, 2012
Messages
259
Reaction score
47
Delete
 
Last edited:

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
14,361
Reaction score
3,897
Location
San Francisco
Ill research the matter further

But thats not really the point of this thread...Im asking if aikido practitioners often cross train...this seems to be turning into another silly aikido sucks thread.
That is definitely not my message. I personally would like to study aikido, and I am afraid I probably missed my chance to train with some highly skilled fellows when I left San Francisco. I regret that, but life is busy and time is limited. I think it would be time well spent though, although I recognize my body at my age might object to all the falling. Maybe I will have an opportunity yet to do so.

But my position is definitely NOT that aikido sucks.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
14,361
Reaction score
3,897
Location
San Francisco
i asked if anyone trains in aikido and if so do they cross train. You are ranked in multiple arts yet dont see the use of aikido...youve said this, why repeat it 4 times.
Ive said no such thing. Ive actually been saying the opposite. I believe aikido (as far as I understand it) has everything it needs to be functional, and I am questioning the very idea that someone must have prior background in other martial systems in order to aikido to be useful.
 
Top