Advice on training in multiple styles at once?

[SPX]

For some of you who may have been reading a lot of my posts lately, it may be obvious that I'm about to get back into the MA game after a handful of years of dormancy. So I have some decisions to make.

I'm starting a wado-ryu karate class tomorrow, but I've been torn as to whether I should go with wado-ryu or Kukki TKD. I have a TKD background (ATA and ITF though, not Kukki), and I love to kick because it's just lots of fun. But I feel like for me personally (this is not a comment on the style), from my research on karate, it will translate better for self-defense. Also, having never studied karate, it's kind of like a new frontier and there's a degree of excitement in that.

To make matters "worse," I've also been looking at some local judo schools. (Like TKD, previously involved though only for about half a year.) After all, gotta have a standup art and a grappling art, right? In fact, I checked out a local judo class just tonight.

To be honest, I kind of want to do all three. Normally, I would think this is a ridiculous notion, but the kicker is that the judo instructor is sharing space with a Kukki TKD school and the TKD adult class is right before the judo class, so I could do one and roll right into the other.

I almost feel like my only options are to do only wado or give all three a shot. Because the TKD/judo back-to-back arrangement just seems too easy. The other option would be to forget wado, and only do TKD and judo, which would certainly be less time consuming, not only because it's only two arts, but also because they're on the same day. But if I don't do wado I know I'm going to be giving up a very interesting training experience (it's a very traditional school with the Japanese master and everything, like in a movie). A third option would be to only do TKD and wado and rely upon the once-per-week hapkido class that the TKD school does every Saturday for my grappling needs. One thing I do know though is that if I do all three, I'm definitely going to end up rushing around to classes 5 days a week, no doubt about it.

So any advice?

 

[Blindside]

I think you will burn yourself out and not accomplish anything trying to do three at once, plus you will get conflicts between the TKD and the Karate. Given that particular set of options I would probably be doing the TKD and Judo place.

 

[Cyriacus]

For some of you who may have been reading a lot of my posts lately, it may be obvious that I'm about to get back into the MA game after a handful of years of dormancy. So I have some decisions to make.

I'm starting a wado-ryu karate class tomorrow, but I've been torn as to whether I should go with wado-ryu or Kukki TKD. I have a TKD background (ATA and ITF though, not Kukki), and I love to kick because it's just lots of fun. But I feel like for me personally (this is not a comment on the style), from my research on karate, it will translate better for self-defense. Also, having never studied karate, it's kind of like a new frontier and there's a degree of excitement in that.

To make matters "worse," I've also been looking at some local judo schools. (Like TKD, previously involved though only for about half a year.) After all, gotta have a standup art and a grappling art, right? In fact, I checked out a local judo class just tonight.

To be honest, I kind of want to do all three. Normally, I would think this is a ridiculous notion, but the kicker is that the judo instructor is sharing space with a Kukki TKD school and the TKD adult class is right before the judo class, so I could do one and roll right into the other.

I almost feel like my only options are to do only wado or give all three a shot. Because the TKD/judo back-to-back arrangement just seems too easy. The other option would be to forget wado, and only do TKD and judo, which would certainly be less time consuming, not only because it's only two arts, but also because they're on the same day. But if I don't do wado I know I'm going to be giving up a very interesting training experience (it's a very traditional school with the Japanese master and everything, like in a movie). A third option would be to only do TKD and wado and rely upon the once-per-week hapkido class that the TKD school does every Saturday for my grappling needs. One thing I do know though is that if I do all three, I'm definitely going to end up rushing around to classes 5 days a week, no doubt about it.

So any advice?

Right - TKD, like Karate, is only as good as its taught. Neither will magically be better for SD.
That said, You already know TKD. I suggest continuing with it instead of having too many tools on your belt.
That said, its up to You, ultimately.

You dont need a Stand Up and Ground Art unless Youre getting into Competition. You can optimally Train a System that does both.

So do all Three, if You can afford it and have the time. Its all up to you.

Thats My Advice.

 

[Twin Fist]

learn ONE thing, then try to learn somethng else, and no, you dont NEED a grappling art.

 

[punisher73]

Arts are like food, everyone has their own opinion on what tastes better. So, do what YOU like to do.

I don't think going to a Judo class would be a problem, simply because you really need a partner to practice and progress so it would be in class anyways (Yes, I know that their are ways to practice solo as well). One of the advantages of a striking art is that you do have methods you can use by yourself that are easier to train that way while at home.

I would NOT attempt to try two different striking methods at the same time in the beginning because of differing delivery methods and applications of how "proper" body mechanics is viewed. It really is a toss-up because Wado-Ryu has a large grappling component to it already from the jujitsu background of it's founder, and depending on the Judo school, some may spend all of their time with competition Judo and the standing throws and not spend alot of time on the ne-waza. The Judo school I went to for a short time, spent it's time 50/50 on standing and the ground.

 

[Flying Crane]

For a number of reasons I don't recommend it.

I've done it myself for a number or years, and there are some caveats, but for the most part I think it creates more problems than it's worth.

Firstly, I will state that not all systems are equally good for every person. You as an individual do need to figure out what system is the best fit for you, and that takes some experimentation and requires training in a few different things, if there are options available to you. It may even take several years of study to make the final decisions. I think often one or two lessons is not enough to make that decision, altho it can be if the fit is glaringly not right.

Here's why I believe it is not a good idea.

First and most obvious is that there are only so many hours in the day, and only so many days in the week. For most of us we need to work a job, we have family and other life obligations, and it's simply more healthy to have a variety of interests in life. If you do nothing but train martial arts, if you have nothing else in your life, you are gonna be somewhat socially stunted. I've known people like that. But what i'm really getting at is that your training time is limited. Training any martial art and doing it well takes a lot of time and effort. If you begin dividing your time between more than one system, then your progress and skill in each system will come much more slowly. That can be frustrating.

Second, different systems can have rather different methods of training what appear on the surface to be similar skills. I trained kenpo and white crane simultaneously for a few years. Both systems punch. But how we practice and develop that punch is surprisingly different, even tho ultimately it's still a punch. When I would practice one system, I was actually developing bad habits with regard to the other system. And vice versa. A good kenpo punch was a bad white crane punch. And a good white crane punch was a bad kenpo punch. So I was in danger of ultimately doing NEITHER one correctly because I would begin to adapt aspects of each method into the other. My kenpo punch began to be more like a white crane punch, and my white crane punch was more like a kenpo punch. And both of my teachers, in each system, were unhappy with how I was punching. All of my punches were both wrong.

It's tempting to believe that studying multiple systems will give you more options. In my opinion, what usually happens is that people just end up making a sloppy mish-mash of it all, and none of it is really very good. If you really understand one system well and you have developed good skills with it, then you don't need another system. In its own way, each system has a complete set of answers to martial training, if you understand how your system really works, and if that system is a good match for you.

there are very few people who are able to really train in multiple systems and do each of them well. Most end up with one system that is pretty good, and the others are kinda miserable. I'd say it's better to make one system REALLy good, and ditch the others. There are some rare gifted people who CAN train several systems and be really good with all of them. But those people ARE RARE. A lot of people want to believe that they are that rare individual, and that they can do multiple systems well. Don't lie to yourself. Accept from the get-go that you are not that person. You'll have an easier and more clear path if you can accept that reality.

Some people are simply interested in multiple things, so they make the choice to study several systems. It's OK as long as you recognize the issues that I've outlined above, and you accept the fact that it will interfere with your progress. If you are good with that truth, and you are simply interested in multiple things, then have at it.

 

[SPX]

I think you will burn yourself out and not accomplish anything trying to do three at once, plus you will get conflicts between the TKD and the Karate.

I do think that burn out will be a concern. Also I'm a bit concerned about general physical exhaustion, especially considering I need to do at least 2 weight workouts a week.

Given that particular set of options I would probably be doing the TKD and Judo place.

If I had found the TKD place before the karate place, that's what I would probably do. From a time/schedule perspective, it definitely works very well. The thing though is that I've already bought the uniform for wado and have told them that I'd be starting tonight. In fact, most people in the class are already quite advanced (I went to 2 classes and only saw black and brown belts and one purple belt), so I was told that they would make sure to have an instructor on hand who is good with working with beginners. So at this point, if I didn't at least give it a legitimate shot I'd kind of feel like a douche.

 

[SPX]

learn ONE thing, then try to learn somethng else

Well collectively I have about 2 years of TKD under my belt and 6 months of judo. So I at least wouldn't be starting from scratch in all three styles.

and no, you dont NEED a grappling art.

I feel like from a self-defense standpoint you at least need a basic understanding of grappling. After all, you can be the best striker in the world, but that's only half the game. If you suddenly become a white belt when you get put on your back then that could prove problematic on the street.

 

[SPX]

I would NOT attempt to try two different striking methods at the same time in the beginning because of differing delivery methods and applications of how "proper" body mechanics is viewed.

On one hand, I'm very interested in karate's explosive power approach, emphasis on evasion, and the get-in-and-get-out kind of skills that are developed through Shotokan-style point competitions. One the other, I love to kick and really appreciate the kicks of TKD. I kind of feel pulled in both directions and don't really want to have to choose one or the other.

It really is a toss-up because Wado-Ryu has a large grappling component to it already from the jujitsu background of it's founder

This is my understanding, but I haven't seen any mats at the school, so I have doubts that much standup grappling is being done. And I'm sure there's no real ground work.

and depending on the Judo school, some may spend all of their time with competition Judo and the standing throws and not spend alot of time on the ne-waza. The Judo school I went to for a short time, spent it's time 50/50 on standing and the ground.

I was actually concerned about this as well and the instructor says that he actually likes to spend a lot of time on ne-waza. One of the students confirmed this.

 

[Cyriacus]

I feel like from a self-defense standpoint you at least need a basic understanding of grappling. After all, you can be the best striker in the world, but that's only half the game. If you suddenly become a white belt when you get put on your back then that could prove problematic on the street.

Both TKD and Karate include enough Grappling to get You by; So long as its actually being taught at the place.

 

[Buka]

Just go train. It's all good.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Judging from your initial post I think you had your first taste of Wado Ryu tonight. I'd say stick with this for some time before branching out to a second art. Wado, IIRC, is a mix of karate and jujutsu so you should have at least a bit of grappling as well as kicking and punching in that style alone.

Give yourself some time to gain proficiency in a single style before branching out to different things. If you try to do too much too soon you'll end up being able to do several things (kick, punch, throw, grapple, etc.) but run the risk of doing none of them well. Also, with so much new material introduced at once it would be likely to take you a longer time to gain proficiency in them than if you concentrated on one area of study, gained a good foundation, and then started a new course of study. I'd probably wait until 1st dan in one style before branching out so I had a good grasp of the basics of the style, but most people would probably want to start cross training sooner.

As for training in the KKW TKD and judo classes, keep in mind that if the training at the school is worthwhile you should be pretty tired after the TKD class and then have to spend more time being thrown all over the place. Having time between classes might be helpful in allowing your body to recover. Wado Ryu one night and then Judo of Taekwon-Dp another night would be good.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Josh Oakley]

I've personally had good success cross-training, even in two separate striking arts. But I have a caveat as well.

To really get into why you would cross-train, it's important to deeply examime WHY you want to train in those specific arts. What are the desired outcomes? My main reasoning for saying this is you will never get to how to cross-train unless you understand explicitly what you want to get out of cross-training and why.

That being said, what helped me cross-train effectively was when you are in a specific class, do exactly what the teacher is saying, especially at the lower levels, even-- no, especially-- if it contradicts what your other teacher(s) shows you. To be able to cross-train, you have to be able to compartmentalize. Now, to combine those elements, for your own art, you can then syncretize concepts.

But frankly, if you're not interested in developing art that's uniquely your own, you're better off not cross training. Wado-ryo or Taekwondo would actually be better.

Also, since it sounds like your focus is self-defense, I have question just how much an understanding of self-defense you'll really get from point sparring. on this board, there are a lot of viewpoints regarding this topic. I am unapologetically antagonistic towards point sparring as a good training method for self defense.

 

[Gemini]

Being of the mindset that teaches it's better to do one thing well than to do many things mediocre, my position on this has been well covered by many above. The only thing I would add is that in reading your posts, it seems like you're overly anxious about this as if it's paramount you endeavor to get this done immediately. Martial Arts is a life experience. Take your time. There's no rush. None of these arts are going anywhere and I assume neither are you.

 

[MJS]

For some of you who may have been reading a lot of my posts lately, it may be obvious that I'm about to get back into the MA game after a handful of years of dormancy. So I have some decisions to make.

I'm starting a wado-ryu karate class tomorrow, but I've been torn as to whether I should go with wado-ryu or Kukki TKD. I have a TKD background (ATA and ITF though, not Kukki), and I love to kick because it's just lots of fun. But I feel like for me personally (this is not a comment on the style), from my research on karate, it will translate better for self-defense. Also, having never studied karate, it's kind of like a new frontier and there's a degree of excitement in that.

To make matters "worse," I've also been looking at some local judo schools. (Like TKD, previously involved though only for about half a year.) After all, gotta have a standup art and a grappling art, right? In fact, I checked out a local judo class just tonight.

To be honest, I kind of want to do all three. Normally, I would think this is a ridiculous notion, but the kicker is that the judo instructor is sharing space with a Kukki TKD school and the TKD adult class is right before the judo class, so I could do one and roll right into the other.

I almost feel like my only options are to do only wado or give all three a shot. Because the TKD/judo back-to-back arrangement just seems too easy. The other option would be to forget wado, and only do TKD and judo, which would certainly be less time consuming, not only because it's only two arts, but also because they're on the same day. But if I don't do wado I know I'm going to be giving up a very interesting training experience (it's a very traditional school with the Japanese master and everything, like in a movie). A third option would be to only do TKD and wado and rely upon the once-per-week hapkido class that the TKD school does every Saturday for my grappling needs. One thing I do know though is that if I do all three, I'm definitely going to end up rushing around to classes 5 days a week, no doubt about it.

So any advice?

As someone who is a big advocate of crosstraining, I don't see anything wrong with doing more than 1 art. However, before I started crosstraining, I was close to black belt in my 1st art. Second, many times people will ask how you can possibly learn, if you're splitting yourself to training more than just 1 art. To a point, I can agree with this, but if we get technical, even with 1 art, how much time, can we honestly say that we spend training? Everybody works, so its not like we can devote 10hrs a day. Everyone needs a day to spend with family, vacation, etc, so again, we're not devoting 10hrs either.

Of course, for myself, I'm not in any rush. In other words, if I only had 1 day a week or a few days a month, of training time, I'm fine with that, and for me, thats a reality. I normally work at night, my days off change every 3 weeks, so my training isn't set....I do it when I can. I'm not in a rush. If it takes my 10yrs or 20yrs to 'learn' the art, then it is what it is..lol. Of course, can we ever really say that we 'learned' the entire system? Maybe thats another thread..lol.

So, in closing....my advice....sure, crosstrain. But, I wouldn't overwhelm yourself.

 

[Flying Crane]

Is Crosstraining the same thing as Training in multiple systems at the same time?

 

[Blindside]

Is Crosstraining the same thing as Training in multiple systems at the same time?

I think it has certainly taken on that connotation in current martial arts training, or at least it has that implication to me.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think it has certainly taken on that connotation in current martial arts training, or at least it has that implication to me.

hmmm... this might end up being a debate for another thread.

I'm kinda seeing it as something different, but maybe it's just a spot on a continuum. I'm seeing crosstraining as a more targeted approach with the intent of gaining a limited and specific skillset from one system in order to supplement another system which is the primary system. The intent is not really to fully learn the second system, only to adopt certain specific and limited skills.

Training in more than one system says to me that the intend is to learn the full system, and perhaps none of the systems are considered the individual's Primary system. Rather, they ALL are considered equally primary.

any thoughts on this?

 

[Blindside]

Split the thread, new thread at:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?100676-cross-training&p=1453105#post1453105

 

[SPX]

The only thing I would add is that in reading your posts, it seems like you're overly anxious about this as if it's paramount you endeavor to get this done immediately. Martial Arts is a life experience. Take your time. There's no rush. None of these arts are going anywhere and I assume neither are you.

There's probably some truth to this. For one, I know that if I don't act fast then a lot of times I'll just let things slip by. For instance, I was part of an ITF TKD club a couple of years ago, but it didn't work out because it just wasn't a very good school. I quit going and told myself I was going to find something better. Well . . . now 2 years later I'm finally doing it. I have a track record of this. If I don't act fast when the moment of inspiration hits, it might get away from me. And this leads into my second point. . .

I just turned 30 and I realize that my best days are probably already over when it comes to competition. Competition was never a big part of previous martial arts endeavors and it's something I regret. I'm kicking myself now, wondering why I didn't lock down and dedicate myself when I was younger. Maybe I would've had a long and fruitful competition career. So I have this serious feeling that I'm making up for lost time. And if I'm going to do it, then I want to do it for real. I don't want to just compete once or twice per year for lolz. I'd like to make a serious go of it.