Advice for hard punching with minimal padding, and still avoid ripping knuckle skin?

[drop bear]

I did not attack your arguments, on the contrary as I specifically wrote:

I merely wrote that there is more than one way to train, more than one way punch and more than one way to fight. They don't all require wrapped hands and extensive bag work. More importantly, I was hoping to get across the point of not being so focused on one and understand and appreciate there are other ways.

Ok. But however you train.

Training it for longer will make you better at it.

And protection will enable you to train longer.

Still no street distinction there.

Or it won't. And you will find a way to argue against it. And there is still no street distinction there.

 

[drop bear]

I don’t think he attacked your argument as such. I don’t think anyone here is suggesting it doesn’t apply because of streets. It’s about training methodology. Perhaps one way is more expedient, and maybe even more efficacious. That does not invalidate other methodologies that may take longer to effectuate similar goals. In other words, I can make toilet wine rather quickly. That toilet wine may have a different quality than a fine bottle from Montepulciano, but both will get you equally drunk. I make it a point not to judge a man by his choice of drink.

That's fine. Then you build a case on its own merits.

You don't say toilet wine is better because it is more suitable for the streets.

Which you could. Because you can apply that argument to anything. And therefore never have to build a case on its own merits.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It’s also why a Boxer’s Fracture is called a Boxer’s Fracture and not called an Okinawan Fracture.

I did not see that coming.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

You don't say toilet wine is better because it is more suitable for the streets

I hesitate to ask, but what is toilet wine?

 

[Simfers]

It's wine made form fermented toilets, of course.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Ah of course, silly me

I googled it... and I shouldn't have...

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That's fine. Then you build a case on its own merits.

You don't say toilet wine is better because it is more suitable for the streets.

Which you could. Because you can apply that argument to anything. And therefore never have to build a case on its own merits.

In my mind the only distinction between streets and rings is that the streets has unknown variables that are entirely contextual to that environment. The ring is full of certainty by contrast. You know who you are fighting, you are equal sized, there are referees and doctors, there are lights, there are no weapons, there is one opponent, and there is protective gear. Toilet wine analogy notwithstanding, I listed the differences. The differences don’t change how you might train, they will certainly change the way you need to fight depending on the variables. As far as merits, I can teach basic striking to someone in a shorter period but then they miss a lot of nuances that add up to being more fluent. The fluency takes time to develop. My guess is that the method I use is not the most expedient, nor the most effective for fighting. Remember that I don’t claim to teach self defense nor street nor ring fighting, I teach principles of movement within a striking framework. Conditioning the body and consistent training repetition is far more important than heavy bags for what I’m teaching. The students can hit the bag on their own time. I have yet to see someone walk into the gym that can do what I ask of them in the first year. I think that is meritorious enough to argue that my toilet wine is effective for its purpose because they are certainly getting something they didn’t have. Whether or not that is palatable is up to the user. As always, mileage may vary.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It's wine made form fermented toilets, of course.

Well played!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It’s also why a Boxer’s Fracture is called a Boxer’s Fracture and not called an Okinawan Fracture.

I have no idea how many of these I’ve assisted in repairing, it’s easily in the dozens, there is always the corresponding “minding my own business” facial fracture that comes in 20 minutes after.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Good, then wrap your wrist, never said you shouldn’t.

Never been part of my training for 53 years, and the majority of that was hitting heavy bags, rather hard, and walls and then palm strike training on trees and walls. Admittedly martial arts of today is not as rough as it was when i was starting, but it was how i began and how i trained.

My TKD teacher back in the late 70s thought the whole idea of protective gear was pretty funny since you don’t have it in a fight. But there was talk of it becoming an olympic sport and some of his students talked him into it. He split the class into Olympic and non-Olympic. I went the non-Olympic side

If it wrapping works for you, great, i’m not a boxer, have no intention of getting in a ring to be one either. Don’t like boxing gloves, not going to wrap wrists and not interested in boxing 101, because Traditional Martial Arts 101does not wrap wrists to train

53 years, and no experience wrapping your fists? Serious question again, what full contact combat sport training do you actually have?

You're following this same trend of claiming, now 5 decades of experience, but how much of it was actually practical?

And I honestly think your a young guy so full of you can’t see there are other viable ways to train and train hard. Not all styles are the same

And by the way, I don’t t drink, don’t appreciate the inference. And if you can’t respond without insults, then please don’t respond

I am not insulting anyone. "drunk" was a metaphor and I made that clear.

Yes not all styles are the same. Quite a few people here are making that point clearly, they have no real idea of what full contact martial arts training requires.

I find it ironic that several people here, including yourself, seem to be avoiding the fact that Muay Thai boxing applies here. Muay Thai boxing is probably one of the most effective martial arts in history, and they all use tape, wrap, and gloves

 

[Sammy Naur]

We all have.

This I sincerely doubt, given some of the nonsense I've read in this thread.

Come on, there are people here claiming 30, 40, 50+ years of "experience", but don't think basic boxing hand protection is important. These are people who have trained martial arts their whole lives and never experienced a hand wrapping?

This boggles me.

It’s tougher the older you get, it’s not the initial two inch pull with your teeth, it’s the last two, especially if your wraps are a little bit damp from the day before or not comply dry from the wash. Doesn’t answer my question, though. Where would you snip them if they were a bit too tight just before you were to fight or train?

I must have missed your question. And I'm really not trying to give anyone a hard time here, but I won't sit back and be told I have a "personality disorder" simply for promoting combat sport prostheses that have stood the test of time since the gladiator age.

It's ignorant on their part.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Definitely do Not have a degree in psychiatry unless the school of hard knocks and experience applies. That said, playing the autistic card does sound like you need to talk to someone.

Not sure what you mean by "being clever with the edit". I do make a lot of typo's that I try to go back and clean up but there in a time limit on my ability to do that.

Look at it this way; you are on a site where people with several centuries of experience offer advice, first hand experience, and Martial Arts information . When a single source goes against this very sage acquired knowledge base, who do think is typically in the wrong?

You are clearly in the wrong.

"Playing the autistic card"?

Not only did you just expose yourself as an ignorant person, you're going on permanent ignore.

 

[Sammy Naur]

I've looked back through your posts and I'm not seeing it. Maybe my eyes are getting old. Can you point out the post where you explain what sort of injuries you're getting 3-4 times per week? Or else just go ahead and explain again?

Hand injuries, which are the topic of this thread.

Which is also why the discussion went towards tape, wraps, and gloves, and then quite a few people started chiming in with 10,000 years of experience not needing such things.

I was just pointing out a high-level modern professional fighter who does think that it has value. I'm sure Thompson wouldn't suggest that everyone has to use the makiwara. But he does argue that it has value. He also advocates for doing at least some bag work with bare knuckles rather than fully wrapped and gloved, which relates to the original topic of this thread. (I don't believe he does all his training that way. Just some of it.)

I understand and appreciate your feedback. At the end of the day, the makiwara is an ancient training device that has been supplanted by much better devices.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Here is a part of the poster's problem - equating MA only with sport competition and not understanding self-defense TMA is different in purpose, application and training.

No, that's your problem. And once again, you're patronizing me, and speaking to the mob here.

We are talking about combat sports like boxing and Muay Thai and even Kyokushin Karate, with centuries of history, especially in the area of hand and fist protection.

And you are making the classic "sport vs street" fallacy.

But true TMA is not a sport - it is self-defense.

You're wrong. All traditional martial arts that are worth anything at all, in terms of hand to hand combat, are also sports. And if they have no sporting component they are generally and objectively worthless.

What you just used is called the "No True Scotsman argument", it's a logical fallacy.

This is the crux of my argument, you are arguing from the point of view of a hobbyist, not a trained fighter. As someone who trains and was trained by actual combatants, the "tape/wrap/glove" discussion is a no brainer, until I get into a heated debate with "TMA" people like yourselves who talk a lot but seem to have absolutely zero experience.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Good God Tony, I hope this isn't going to start a trend of everyone listing their injuries, That is going to be one long show and tell, hahaha.

Although the poster isn't suggesting something ludicrous in the global sense he did fall into the trap of applying the ideas and values of one art (boxing) and trying to relate it to another (Kyokushin) without understanding the art and values of the other.

There was no trap, and once again you are another person muddying the issue.

We're not talking about "one art". We're not just talking about Queensbury rules boxing.

"values" of Kyokushin? What are the "values" of Kyokushin vs Muay Thai because Nak Muay would kill most Kyokushin karate "self defense" black belts.

 

[Sammy Naur]

I also think somebody needs to...ahem... have a thicker skin

This is a great example of passive aggressive behavior.

I probably have the thickest skin of anyone here, especially you. Literally and metaphorically. Which is why I find it ironic that in a thread about hand protection, we've come back to the "TMA" vs. "MMA" garbage, and people seem to have forgotten that Boxing (in the Western sense) is not the only hand to hand fighting art where tape, wraps, gloves, and other protections are utilized.

Seriously, is there not one other Muay Thai or Lethwei person here?

 

[Sammy Naur]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
Opinions are good, and strong opinions can be awesome. But when things get a little. hot, we all need to step back and chill.
In short, tone it down and keep it friendly and professional, or the thread will be closed, and accounts restricted or banned.

Mark A. Cochran
@Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator.

I won't lie, this thread has me a little fired up.

I've also noticed that there is a gangup thing going on where the topic is "

Advice for hard punching with minimal padding, and still avoid ripping knuckle skin?"​

My solid, time tested advice for protecting the hands is basically being disavowed due to the fact that, historically, many "TMA" bros think they're tough and don't require them.

This is part of the problem with martial arts today; these people are dismissing what every amateur and pro fighter knows, especially when it comes to long-term training.

And not just combat sports, hell, professional football and soccer players too. You have to protect your parts at all times, especially in martial arts. But we live in an age where people prance around in dojos and gis pretending they are made of stone.

Listen up, none of us are made of stone. You don't have iron fists, and if you've never punched someone in the face, or been punched in the face, you really are just blowing smoke up my ****.

 

[Sammy Naur]

I think any kind of combative training is hard on the body, something one might not notice when they'er young, but understand as they age...Maybe to late.

Of course, and this is why you use hand protection. When we're young we hit things stupidly. IF we train with experienced hand to hand combat coaches, they teach us things.

Vaseline! IF I say that to an experience boxer or Nak Muay, they know what I mean. But try telling that to a lot of karate and TKD "self defense" artists.

I feel like this discussion is running in circles, but I'm going to stick to my guns here because as someone with a lot of full contact fighting experience, I know better than to listen to a bunch of traditionalists dismissing practical combat arts.

And for the record, I have never insulted Tai Chi, karate, TKD, or any of those arts. I have a serious problem with people throwing out the "I've trained for decades and never needed such things!" nonsense.

 

[Sammy Naur]

The argument for wrapping your hands is so you can engage in prolonged striking in training without damaging your hands.

The Idea behind engaging in prolonged striking in training is to be good at striking.

If you are either in a street fight or a ring fight. Having good striking is going to help you.

If you fight for ten seconds or ten minutes. Having good striking is going to help you.

There is no real correlation between people who train for the street. And their ability to street fight.

That was just really bad logic.

I feel like you understand what I've been saying.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Might explain getting injured on a weekly basis. It’s probably at the hands of the trainers.

This is a good example of how someone on a forum posts an honest thing about their hands, and it gets turn into a pile on.

We were talking about hands, and wrists, and how they get injured during striking training. And the prophylactic tools we have to help prevent injury.

I'll be blunt, you cannot train striking of any kind, without injuring your hands and wrists (or legs and feet if you're a kickboxer). Human hands did not evolve to be striking weapons, that is an adaptation.

The impasse in this thread appears to be the classic "we don't train for the ring, we train for the street" fallacy.