Advice for hard punching with minimal padding, and still avoid ripping knuckle skin?

[Wing Woo Gar]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
Opinions are good, and strong opinions can be awesome. But when things get a little. hot, we all need to step back and chill.
In short, tone it down and keep it friendly and professional, or the thread will be closed, and accounts restricted or banned.

Mark A. Cochran
@Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator.

Just saw this. Note taken.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
Opinions are good, and strong opinions can be awesome. But when things get a little. hot, we all need to step back and chill.
In short, tone it down and keep it friendly and professional, or the thread will be closed, and accounts restricted or banned.

Mark A. Cochran
@Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator.

I think the one individual is trying hard to get these reactions, he has been insulting the entire thread despite our gentle initial approach to the topic. Your warning may have come a tad too late.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I mean if your instructor is seeing you get injured virtually every time you go to class and ignoring it that seems rather... ...callus...

 

[jks9199]

Gentlefolk,
If you're missing the hint, the Administrator hat is on. Pointing a finger of blame is unnecessary and almost certainly inappropriate.

If you find a post objectionable, report it, and let us Staff do our job. Don't respond in kind to the post, and maybe give consideration to putting someone who bugs you on Ignore. You won't see their posts, though you might If they are quoted.

Jks9199
MT Administrator

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I mean if your instructor is seeing you get injured virtually every time you go to class and ignoring it that seems rather... ...callus...

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Gentlefolk,
If you're missing the hint, the Administrator hat is on. Pointing a finger of blame is unnecessary and almost certainly inappropriate.

If you find a post objectionable, report it, and let us Staff do our job. Don't respond in kind to the post, and maybe give consideration to putting someone who bugs you on Ignore. You won't see their posts, though you might If they are quoted.

Jks9199
MT Administrator

Implore away, I don’t think anyone here has gone too far in this thread. In fact, the entire thread was unanimously diverted to give good plausible explanations for their opinions to one offending individual who continues to offend. Although there may not be a necessity, perhaps the finger of blame is not so inaccurate, nor entirely inappropriate in this particular instance.

 

[drop bear]

But true TMA is not a sport - it is self-defense. Encounters trained for are not preplanned and do not entail many minutes of constant hands striking an opponent (actually, original karate utilized few punches). Being so fundamentally different in these respects, its training requirements and methods are different and should be no surprise.

The argument for wrapping your hands is so you can engage in prolonged striking in training without damaging your hands.

The Idea behind engaging in prolonged striking in training is to be good at striking.

If you are either in a street fight or a ring fight. Having good striking is going to help you.

If you fight for ten seconds or ten minutes. Having good striking is going to help you.

There is no real correlation between people who train for the street. And their ability to street fight.

That was just really bad logic.

 

[Buka]

I’ve been around a lot of martial arts for a long time. And to me, boxing is a martial art, a limited but very effective one.

Spent many years in law enforcement training, too.

I’ve been searching my memory for the very few individuals who’ve come in any of those places with a loud, offensive, disrespectful or a bully’s attitude.

Might explain getting injured on a weekly basis. It’s probably at the hands of the trainers.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Gentlefolk,
If you're missing the hint, the Administrator hat is on. Pointing a finger of blame is unnecessary and almost certainly inappropriate.

If you find a post objectionable, report it, and let us Staff do our job. Don't respond in kind to the post, and maybe give consideration to putting someone who bugs you on Ignore. You won't see their posts, though you might If they are quoted.

Jks9199
MT Administrator

OK sorry I'll behave. No, uh, skin off my nose

 

[Prince_Alarming]

.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The argument for wrapping your hands is so you can engage in prolonged striking in training without damaging your hands.

The Idea behind engaging in prolonged striking in training is to be good at striking.

If you are either in a street fight or a ring fight. Having good striking is going to help you.

If you fight for ten seconds or ten minutes. Having good striking is going to help you.

There is no real correlation between people who train for the street. And their ability to street fight.

That was just really bad logic.

No one can realistically “train for the street” due to infinite variables inherent to the environment. People who are really good at fighting are typically people who fight a lot, regardless of where they fight. Experience, heart, durability, size, age, mental acuity, and proprioception, are all qualities that can and do make big differences in fighting ability. What methods used to train these qualities matter, but nothing matters more than actual experience. Where that experience is gained may inform the way that people express it. How that plays out in real time may depend somewhat on home field advantage. This is to say that if you only ever fight without gloves, they may feel foreign and cumbersome. This can put someone at some disadvantage. Conversely, if you only ever fight in a controlled environment with protective equipment against a single known opponent, you may be at some disadvantage during an unexpected event out in public. This may account for some discrepancies in opinion on the topic. Not everyone fights in a gym, and certainly most people don’t fight in public. It’s far more common for people to have real fight experiences from a gym these days. You is being used here as a general term and in no way am I referring to you personally. I am just expounding your point.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And I'm not trying to disenfranchise the makiwara, just trying to point out it's old and antiquated compared to, say, the modern heavy bag.

I don't hit any harder than a well packed heavy bag. For me it better if my knuckle can sink into the bag a little. Punching anything harder than that is less productive for stabbing with knuckles. If people want to turn their fist into a mace then they should hit something harder.

My thought is that people should condition the hand based on a set purpose for the types of strikes one uses.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Good, then wrap your wrist, never said you shouldn’t.

Never been part of my training for 53 years, and the majority of that was hitting heavy bags, rather hard, and walls and then palm strike training on trees and walls. Admittedly martial arts of today is not as rough as it was when i was starting, but it was how i began and how i trained.

My TKD teacher back in the late 70s thought the whole idea of protective gear was pretty funny since you don’t have it in a fight. But there was talk of it becoming an olympic sport and some of his students talked him into it. He split the class into Olympic and non-Olympic. I went the non-Olympic side

If it wrapping works for you, great, i’m not a boxer, have no intention of getting in a ring to be one either. Don’t like boxing gloves, not going to wrap wrists and not interested in boxing 101, because Traditional Martial Arts 101does not wrap wrists to train

And I honestly think your a young guy so full of you can’t see there are other viable ways to train and train hard. Not all styles are the same

And by the way, I don’t t drink, don’t appreciate the inference. And if you can’t respond without insults, then please don’t respond

Push ups on wrists and knuckles pretty much addresses hand wraps. Gloves allow people to get away with things that not be advised nor trained in traditional martial arts.

 

[Badhabits]

I don't hit any harder than a well packed heavy bag. For me it better if my knuckle can sink into the bag a little. Punching anything harder than that is less productive for stabbing with knuckles. If people want to turn their fist into a mace then they should hit something harder.

My thought is that people should condition the hand based on a set purpose for the types of strikes one uses.

Motobu was supposedly known on Okinawa for having a devastating one knuckle punch which he practiced on makiwara. I've tried it some and it's not something I chose to pursue lol.

 

[isshinryuronin]

the argument for wrapping your hands is so you can engage in prolonged striking in training without damaging your hands.

The Idea behind engaging in prolonged striking in training is to be good at striking.

Your logic here is A = B, B = C, therefore A = C. Where:

A = wrapping hands
B = safely train prolonged striking
C = being good at striking (or at least contributes to it)
Therefore: Wrapping hands leads to effective striking

Because there is repeated stress on the hands in boxing training on the heavy bag and in actual fighting, this logic applies. But what does hitting the heavy bag do? There are several advantages, but the most relevant for this discussion is that, firstly, it builds power. In particular, driving. crushing follow-thru power. (One doesn't stop as soon as the hand makes contact with the bag's surface.)

Why is this kind of power necessary in boxing? Since padded gloves are worn there is a lot of shock absorption before the punch force really takes effect. "Heavy hands" are needed to cause real damage (unless one aims to simply cut up the opponent for a TKO strategy). Secondly, extended work on the heavy bag builds muscle and cardio endurance. It's quite the workout.

So, I think I've defended your position in regard to boxing and your logic. But what is not taken into account is that there are other methodologies that are NOT dependent on A and B that contribute to effective striking, C.

Okinawan karate uses such a methodology. The kind of force required is different than described above. As karate is a bare-knuckle combat art, there is no power absorption by gloves. Hard knuckles make direct contact upon the opponent. This means damage is done with much less drive and follow-thru required.

Our punches (and kicks) are more of the snapping kind, fast and loose, adding power at the point of impact with very little follow thru. I assure you they are effective having been on both ends. And since self-defense encounters typically last less time than a boxing round or two, endurance is less of a concern. Not to mention that in karate the hands don't do all the work, much of the load taken up by elbows, locks and kicks.

So, karate is less reliant on the benefits of prolonged heavy bag punching work. Some of that time is spent training alternative methods of effective striking. Less heavy bag work and less hand/wrist stress in training, and less hand to body contact in actual application over extended time = less need for wraps.

All of this leads to different arts can be effective by using different methods. The sprinter and 10K runner are both good at running, but their running is different as is the way they train. I'm sure there is some overlap, and I think karate training should include some heavy bag work for its full range of benefits. We should be open minded and not think one way is the only way.

 

[Buka]

It’s also why a Boxer’s Fracture is called a Boxer’s Fracture and not called an Okinawan Fracture.

 

[drop bear]

Your logic here is A = B, B = C, therefore A = C. Where:

A = wrapping hands
B = safely train prolonged striking
C = being good at striking (or at least contributes to it)
Therefore: Wrapping hands leads to effective striking

Because there is repeated stress on the hands in boxing training on the heavy bag and in actual fighting, this logic applies. But what does hitting the heavy bag do? There are several advantages, but the most relevant for this discussion is that, firstly, it builds power. In particular, driving. crushing follow-thru power. (One doesn't stop as soon as the hand makes contact with the bag's surface.)

Why is this kind of power necessary in boxing? Since padded gloves are worn there is a lot of shock absorption before the punch force really takes effect. "Heavy hands" are needed to cause real damage (unless one aims to simply cut up the opponent for a TKO strategy). Secondly, extended work on the heavy bag builds muscle and cardio endurance. It's quite the workout.

So, I think I've defended your position in regard to boxing and your logic. But what is not taken into account is that there are other methodologies that are NOT dependent on A and B that contribute to effective striking, C.

Okinawan karate uses such a methodology. The kind of force required is different than described above. As karate is a bare-knuckle combat art, there is no power absorption by gloves. Hard knuckles make direct contact upon the opponent. This means damage is done with much less drive and follow-thru required.

Our punches (and kicks) are more of the snapping kind, fast and loose, adding power at the point of impact with very little follow thru. I assure you they are effective having been on both ends. And since self-defense encounters typically last less time than a boxing round or two, endurance is less of a concern. Not to mention that in karate the hands don't do all the work, much of the load taken up by elbows, locks and kicks.

So, karate is less reliant on the benefits of prolonged heavy bag punching work. Some of that time is spent training alternative methods of effective striking. Less heavy bag work and less hand/wrist stress in training, and less hand to body contact in actual application over extended time = less need for wraps.

All of this leads to different arts can be effective by using different methods. The sprinter and 10K runner are both good at running, but their running is different as is the way they train. I'm sure there is some overlap, and I think karate training should include some heavy bag work for its full range of benefits. We should be open minded and not think one way is the only way.

Ok. There are two arguments I made.

Wrapping your hands will make you able to punch longer before you have to stop.
And.
If you punch for longer in training. You will get better at punching.

You are welcome to attack those arguments if you wish.

Suggesting that those two arguments do not apply because of the street. Doesn't make sense.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Ok. There are two arguments I made.

Wrapping your hands will make you able to punch longer before you have to stop.
And.
If you punch for longer in training. You will get better at punching.

You are welcome to attack those arguments if you wish.

Suggesting that those two arguments do not apply because of the street. Doesn't make sense.

I did not attack your arguments, on the contrary as I specifically wrote:

I've defended your position

I merely wrote that there is more than one way to train, more than one way punch and more than one way to fight. They don't all require wrapped hands and extensive bag work. More importantly, I was hoping to get across the point of not being so focused on one and understand and appreciate there are other ways.