Advancement

[karate-dragon]

When you reach the highest level that you can with your instructor, what is the proper way to find a way to continue?

 

[Kacey]

When you reach the highest level that you can with your instructor, what is the proper way to find a way to continue?

I would start by asking my instructor... but then, he's been actively training and advancing for the 20 years he's been my instructor; when I started he was a II Dan, and now he's a VI Dan, preparing for VII Dan early next year - so it's unlikely I'll ever catch up with him.

If, for some reason, your instructor cannot, or will not, provide you with the information you need to advance further, I would suggest contacting a Kenpo/Kempo association - being in TKD myself, I'm not sure what that association might be, but I'm sure someone will come along shortly who has some specific information.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

In theory, this should never come up.

Start as a white belt with a 2nd black instructor. He should be able to promote you to 1st black.

By then (3-4 years), he'll be 3rd black, maybe closing in on 4th.

Come your 2nd dan test, he'll definitely be 4th and able to promote you to 3rd.

Etc.

If your instructor isn't actively training and getting promoted, that's a sign in and of itself.

 

[Thesemindz]

In theory, this should never come up.

Start as a white belt with a 2nd black instructor. He should be able to promote you to 1st black.

By then (3-4 years), he'll be 3rd black, maybe closing in on 4th.

Come your 2nd dan test, he'll definitely be 4th and able to promote you to 3rd.

Etc.

If your instructor isn't actively training and getting promoted, that's a sign in and of itself.

I'd agree that that might be a sign, but I don't think it's neccessarily the sign you're implying. Some martial artists may have been cut off from their original instructors. Others may have decided to teach their own style of martial arts, and are not a part of any larger governing body. I know martial artists who have given up on rank and decided to pass on the knowledge they have to others, without concern for further gratification. If the instructor stops learning and training, there might be an issue, although that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't still have quality information to offer. If he stops acheiving rank, he may simply have reached a point in his own journey, either for now or forever, where rank no longer holds value to him. To make a blanket statement about instructors who stop moving up in rank doesn't take any of that into account. What about 10th degrees in Kenpo, or similarly, other seniors who have chosen to remain at their current ranks. Does their decision somehow invalidate their knowledge?

As far as the original question about acheiving higher rank, if your instructor can't rank you any higher, you basically have three options. Stay where you are, and enjoy the experience, seek out higher ranked masters willing to take you on and train with them, or start fresh in another martial art. Ultimately, you have to decide what's important to you.


-Rob

 

[Sukerkin]

Good points from Thesemondz there :tup:.

It should also be borne in mind that some fields of the arts do not have the belt-centric philosophy that permeates TKD or Kenpo and that advancement in rank can take a very long time indeed. A prime example is Sensei Iwata in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido, probably the greatest living exponent of the art there is ... and he's only hachidan as he approaches his century.

I suppose my point is why be in a hurry? If the grading system in the art carries weight then, if senior, your sensei will be quite old. It is not beyond the bounds of respect to stay with him/her until they pass on and then look elsewhere for instruction.

 

[jks9199]

I'd agree that that might be a sign, but I don't think it's neccessarily the sign you're implying. Some martial artists may have been cut off from their original instructors. Others may have decided to teach their own style of martial arts, and are not a part of any larger governing body. I know martial artists who have given up on rank and decided to pass on the knowledge they have to others, without concern for further gratification. If the instructor stops learning and training, there might be an issue, although that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't still have quality information to offer. If he stops acheiving rank, he may simply have reached a point in his own journey, either for now or forever, where rank no longer holds value to him. To make a blanket statement about instructors who stop moving up in rank doesn't take any of that into account. What about 10th degrees in Kenpo, or similarly, other seniors who have chosen to remain at their current ranks. Does their decision somehow invalidate their knowledge?

Or... Some people just haven't decided to deal with the promotional process in their style. Maybe they disagree with the emphasis, maybe they got disillusioned when they saw people promoted without demonstrating what they believe is the appropriate level of skill... or they just haven't had time to train and meet the requirements.

Lack of advancement doesn't necessarily mean lack of skill progression.

 

[kidswarrior]

Good points from Thesemondz there :tup:.

It should also be borne in mind that some fields of the arts do not have the belt-centric philosophy that permeates TKD or Kenpo and that advancement in rank can take a very long time indeed. A prime example is Sensei Iwata in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido, probably the greatest living exponent of the art there is ... and he's only hachidan as he approaches his century.

I suppose my point is why be in a hurry?

Kinda like 'Judo' Gene LeBelle, huh? 8th Dan and proud of the fact he's earned every level, and turned down a lot of 'gimme' promos from (probably well-meaning) people who have tried to honor him with a higher ranking. I've never played Judo, but man ya gotta love that.

BTW, still occasionally like to pull out the VHS of his fight with Milo Savage in 1962. Mixed Martial Arts started when, again?

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

The proper way to continue is to talk to your instructor.

You may find that your desire may trigger his to advance also.

Note that rank is not synonimous with advancement.

In chinese systems, your SiFu (Father-teacher) will be that always. You may create your own martial family, and they would call you Sifu, and you teacher they would call SiGung.

You may surpass your instructor in skill, yet he would still be your Sifu, since you owe that person your fundamental training that led to your present skill.

Rank are dependent on organization, so it really depends on yours. I share
this only for insights sake.

Enjoy!

Juan M. Mercado

 

[masherdong]

Greetings.

The proper way to continue is to talk to your instructor.

You may find that your desire may trigger his to advance also.

Note that rank is not synonimous with advancement.

In chinese systems, your SiFu (Father-teacher) will be that always. You may create your own martial family, and they would call you Sifu, and you teacher they would call SiGung.

You may surpass your instructor in skill, yet he would still be your Sifu, since you owe that person your fundamental training that led to your present skill.

Rank are dependent on organization, so it really depends on yours. I share
this only for insights sake.

Enjoy!

Juan M. Mercado

Well said sir!

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Lack of advancement doesn't necessarily mean lack of skill progression.

Agreed.

But lack of continued training certainly does. I would be very leary of any instructor who isn't still training under somebody somewhere. I'm sure there are a few (very few) exceptions, but in general training yourself is absolutely insufficient.

You can't grow without exposure to new ideas. If you don't grow, you begin to stagnate in your art. If you begin to stagnate, this will negatively affect your teaching.

But I do agree that there can be reasons other than stagnation or laziness for no longer advancing in your main art.

 

[kidswarrior]

Agreed.

But lack of continued training certainly does. I would be very leary of any instructor who isn't still training under somebody somewhere. I'm sure there are a few (very few) exceptions, but in general training yourself is absolutely insufficient.

You can't grow without exposure to new ideas. If you don't grow, you begin to stagnate in your art. If you begin to stagnate, this will negatively affect your teaching.

But I do agree that there can be reasons other than stagnation or laziness for no longer advancing in your main art.

I agree with most of this. Would just add that lots of 'exposure to new ideas' can come from our students themselves, if we're teaching. Seneca: A man, as long as he teaches, learns. Then there are all the DVD's and books from some of the MA legends that it would take years to work through (not 'watch once and done', but study/work through).

But while all of that can give one a lot of meat to chew on, I agree that there's nothing like training with live bodies without the responsibility of keeping an eye on the whole class, and under the watchful eye of a good instructor. Whether that leads to promotions or not, well, that to me is a political issue: whether someone decides to promote me or not (after 1st Dan) is in part, at least, a popularity contest, imho. Old AA adage: What other people think of me is none of my concern.

 

[Seabrook]

When you reach the highest level that you can with your instructor, what is the proper way to find a way to continue?

That depends on how you define level. Are you talking about rank or skill? If the latter, why do you think you can't more from him/her?

 

[jdinca]

Interesting dilemma. To echo Seabrook, I'm assuming you're talking about rank, and not ability?

If your instructor is the highest ranking person in the school, you have a problem. If there are higher ranking teachers, your instructor should have seen this coming and had contingency plans already in place to move you on to someone with a higher rank. Either way, then talk to him/her.

 

[Flying Crane]

I dunno. If you have reached the highest rank your instructor can give you, and if he honestly feels he has no more to teach you and is actually shoving you out of the nest, then maybe it's time to stand on your own two feet. Why do you always need someone to follow around and tell you what to do? Maybe later you will find another teacher to further your training, but I don't feel you have to have one all the time. Sometimes the best growth you get is thru time doing your own thing with what you have.

On the other hand, I would hope that an instructor would welcome you to keep training with him, regardless of his ability/willingness to give further rank. Even if you know all the formal material that he teaches, you can still grow thru training together. But maybe he is retiring and no longer interested in teaching.

At any rate, I always encourage people to stand on their own two feet and think for themselves. The arts are, ultimately, a personal thing. If you can't stand on your own two feet then you are just mimicking and you haven't really learned much.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

Actually, I think this is an excellent topic.
I can think of quite a few instructors that I know who are not pursuing further rank in their style for multiple reasons (one including the death of his instructor), so this is a very real problem for many.

AoG

 

[morph4me]

I was actually in that situation, based on the way our rank structure is set up. The solution, when I reached the higest level I could with my instructor, he took me to his instructor to continue my training.

 

[karate-dragon]

Thanks to all, lots of great comments. To give more info, it's not the dan level as much as continuing to learn. When your instructor is happy to be where they are, i.e. doesn't see that pursuing their own further advancement will add anything to their school and it is not an overwhelming push since only a few students "catch up". Agreed, your teacher is always your teacher and can always help you refine your skills. But as far as learning other forms and components that you know are in your style but that your instructor doesn't have....

 

[Seabrook]

Thanks to all, lots of great comments. To give more info, it's not the dan level as much as continuing to learn. When your instructor is happy to be where they are, i.e. doesn't see that pursuing their own further advancement will add anything to their school and it is not an overwhelming push since only a few students "catch up". Agreed, your teacher is always your teacher and can always help you refine your skills. But as far as learning other forms and components that you know are in your style but that your instructor doesn't have....

That is a good enough reason for me.

If it appears that your instructor doesn't have the drive and desire to be the best he can be, not only for himself but for his students, it's time to move on. Loyalty is important, but you don't have to stick with someone if he/she is not giving you the tools you need to be the best you can be, particularly when you are a paying customer.

 

[Jdokan]

a well stimulated subject as varied as our arts.....After 25+ years of training does rank really matter? If one is looking to continually improve....then they are learning, getting better. learning as somone earlier put it comes in many forms....from students as well as other higher ranks....I do agree that having a body to work on is (in my opinion) better than working to the air...Different body masses also help....Doing a technique on someone my own size and weight is one thing....when I try that same technique on somebody 6'-3" and 240 lbs is something that may need to be modified.....