Abstract Vs. Reality II

[dancingalone]

So, the outcome I feared came true. (See http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90753 for the original topic. I basically mused about the ethics of teaching martial arts to someone you KNOW will use it in short order.) My student got into a fight with one of his tormentors last week (again?) and mostly 'won' the exchange. Both kids are in disciplinary proceedings at school and may be ultimately expelled.

Perhaps it might be illuminating to revisit the topic. Do any of you think I failed my student by teaching him how to fight? Should I have referred him to a conflict management teacher instead, or failing that should I have taught him a more passive martial method such as aikido instead?

Food for thought. Again, it's hard to speak of the situation on an abstract basis since the impetus is my personal anecdote, but please try anyway. I'm not so much interested into delving into the specifics but rather the topic on the whole.

 

[Kacey]

I include specific instruction on proper use of the skills taught in class. Students who do not abide by proper use will not be allowed to continue to participate in class. I've never had an underage student deliberately use anything I taught except in a true self-defense situation. I did have one student who was attacked at school by another student; by his report, and backed up by several witnesses, he blocked, but did not counter, for several minutes until an adult arrived, and I consider that appropriate, even if the school didn't - he was suspended for "striking" the other student, as the other student had bruises on his forearms from the blocks. But that was due to a strict interpretation of no fighting statutes by the school - had he stood there and allowed himself to be hit, there would have been no disciplinary action, but because he prevented injury to himself, he was held to be equally as accountable as the boy who attacked him.

Only once have I had an adult do so - and in her case, it was a cultural misunderstanding about appropriate social contact (she was a native of another country); she was in a bar where a man she didn't know touched her behind on top of her clothes (the people with her later told me that he had been shoved from behind), and she kneed him in the groin in response - we discussed why her response was excessive, and she revealed privately that she had been sexually abused by family members in the past, so it was understandable, if not acceptable. Following that private discussion, along with class discussions that occur regularly, she moderated her responses.

As far as the situation you cite, if you provided instruction on correct use, you can only accept so much responsibility for what your student did outside of class. If you didn't provide such instruction, I would suggest that begin to do so from this point on. My rules for underage students are pretty basic; effectively, it comes out to "
If a stranger tries to get you to go somewhere, do whatever you can to get away. If you are attacked by another kid, block. Otherwise, don't use this outside of class." With adults, there are discussions about levels of response based on the situation.

 

[jthomas1600]

A couple of observations about a situation like this.

First as Kacey pointed out, both students are almost always going to get into trouble. Unless a student just curls up in the fetal position and takes a beating he'll be seen as a willing participant or what ever. And sometimes in the jr. high/high school world confrontations are very hard to avoid. So just because a student gets into a fight, or gets into trouble for fighting does not necessarily mean he willfully disregarded the teachings and admonishing from his martial arts instructor.

Second, as to weather it's wrong to teach a student when you think it's likely he is going to end up fighting. It certainly can be said that he is likely to get into the fights anyway whether or not he is taking ma. At least by taking on such a student you have the opportunity to try and equip him with other skills to avoid confrontation at the same time your teaching him to win if the confrontation does arise.

 

[jks9199]

If I've put the pieces together, we're talking about a case where a student is in a situation where they are likely to have to defend themselves. I routinely include instruction on what's an appropriate response to attacks with students, in ways that fit their age. But I have little control over what they do when they walk out of the training hall... If I'm concerned that a student will use their training to be a bully or worse -- that person isn't likely to be a student long.

More specifically, in a situation you're describing, I'd want to know if the student defended themselves against an attack -- or acted against a pattern of victimization. The schools often have zero tolerance policies that don't take that into account, but my relationship with my students is not the same as the school.

 

[leadleg]

I teach our children to attack large muscle groups on the body,first with kicks then with hand strikes or elbows. This is for children fighting children. I ask that they take a shove,trip, or one punch without countering and tell an adult. I feel violence is best handled by adults. Our children spar full contact and all have been hit in the face hard, accidentally and can recover to continue sparring. This gives them an advantage to being hit without losing their temper.
I have advised parents who want their kids to fight back to take it off school grounds. At the very least they should not hamper their education or get tagged as a fighter in school.
The problem is that most of the time (these days) fighting only wins a battle but starts a war. There really is no easy answer or solution to bully's who will keep coming back for more or have their friends cousins or big brothers,sisters from continuing the actions started.
I also advise the parents to call the police and start a paper trail for their lawyers to follow as this is probably what is going to wind up being a legal battle. Either the parents will find themselves in a legal battle with the other parents or a legal battle with the school board.
All said and done ANYTHING is going to be a better solution than actual fighting.
Most of the time I find that the bullying may start with the bully but is aggrevated by both parties.
Sometimes the whole thing can be avoided by parents talking with parents, if not then you can enlist a third party, principal of school or a police officer to help talk with the parents.
Children need to learn how not to fight.

 

[leadleg]

I copied this from Marc Mac Young's site and hand it out to parents who come to me about school bullys http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/zerotolerance.htm

 

[andyjeffries]

Personally I would say you did the right thing. You weren't teaching someone who had violent/bullying tendencies, you were teaching a victim how to defend themselves. If they weren't going to use it and were going to keep being a victim I'd be concerned (self-destructive attitude).

Whether they get expelled from school is between them, their parents and the school. You stopped them from being beaten and that is a great thing.

I was bullied from a young age until about 13 (I start Taekwondo at 12 and used it a few times fairly immediately). I'm coming from a point of view where I know how bad bullying can be and how Taekwondo changed my life from being scared of shadows for fear of what would happen to a self-confident individual.

You did the right thing and if I were you, I'd do it again in a heartbeat!

 

[StudentCarl]

If I remember the discussion correctly, your judgment was that this student needed skills for defense and was not the sort to bully or go seeking trouble. Either your judgment was right or it was not, and it's probably valuable experience for you either way.

I've respected your thinking and judgment here, so I would be comfortable that a student who lasted with you for any period of time would have been taught your expectations and that you would not have taught him practical skills if you thought he would misuse them. Since he is your student, I think it's appropriate for you to ask him to provide the details of what happened.

 

[dancingalone]

I think I did the right thing in this situation. Some of you might recall that I had the parents training in the class too along with their child as a condition for teaching him, since I wanted to make sure he and I had their buy-in, as I viewed 'arming' the boy as a definite escalation in the on-going conflict.

I realize it's not a fully rational feeling I have, but I do admit to holding some regrets over my involvement in the matter. The kid might be expelled from school... Maybe without me, he doesn't get into a fight at all and he finds another way out. Or maybe if I had taught him differently, the outcome also is altered.

 

[StudentCarl]

I think I did the right thing in this situation. Some of you might recall that I had the parents training in the class too along with their child as a condition for teaching him, since I wanted to make sure he and I had their buy-in, as I viewed 'arming' the boy as a definite escalation in the on-going conflict.

I realize it's not a fully rational feeling I have, but I do admit to holding some regrets over my involvement in the matter. The kid might be expelled from school... Maybe without me, he doesn't get into a fight at all and he finds another way out. Or maybe if I had taught him differently, the outcome also is altered.

A question I ask myself in situations where the path is unclear is how I would want someone to handle the situation if it was my son/daughter. Not knowing all the details, I think there are worse outcomes to the situation than being expelled.

Having taught soldiers skills, ethics and rules of engagement, there's no escaping that what we teach may change others' lives or even end them. It's not always a comfortable responsibility, but it's a very important one. What do the parents of the boy say?

Since your OP is asking about the general issue rather than just this situation: I think this is a reminder of why it is important to teach the five tenets and to take time to discuss and train situations and the law to some degree, even in a sport oriented setting. Talking about self-control needs to include more than passing mention of what it means in different settings outside the dojang. Young people, in particular, don't automatically take what we teach and generalize it to their lives.

It will be telling whether the boy and parents continue to study with you. It sounds like everyone would benefit from continued learning, so I hope he stays.

 

[dancingalone]

The parents are worried about him being kicked out. They both work and cannot home school him and they would be forced to send him to the 'alternative' school in school, generally reserved for kids with special needs or behavioral problems.

On the other hand, they're generally proud that he was able to stand up for himself and they don't blame me at all for what happened.

I dunno. Wish the kid could have avoided fighting altogether, but I wasn't there, so I don't completely understand what and how things unfolded.

On a physical skills level, I like what my student did. He stepped to the inside of a right hook punch with his hands up for a guard. Then he threw a lead backfist and a reverse punch to the other kid's face, which bloodied him up good. Classic self-defense stuff.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

School system policy regarding consequences for what they consider 'fighting' is generally determined by political correctness, special interests, or fear. Mostly fear.

The fear is that fistfights will become knife fights, gunfights, or one student bringing a gun in and shooting one or more unarmed students.

One of the problems as I see it is that the school system is generally unable to or unwilling to address systematic paterns of victimization in any meaningful way. When the victim has finally had enough and fights back, he or she is then penalized with equal weight along with their tormentor(s). Ultimately, the message is that students should just be prepared to be victims because the school system cannot take the time to formulate a more coherent policy. Not to mention that the zero tollerance policies generally allow school administrators to be mindless drones in dealing with such situations.

In short, I don't think that you did the wrong thing or have any reason to regret teaching your student as you did.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I dunno. Wish the kid could have avoided fighting altogether, but I wasn't there, so I don't completely understand what and how things unfolded.

The kid can avoid the fight, but sometimes, the fight won't avoid the kid.

Daniel

 

[Nomad]

I think I did the right thing in this situation. Some of you might recall that I had the parents training in the class too along with their child as a condition for teaching him, since I wanted to make sure he and I had their buy-in, as I viewed 'arming' the boy as a definite escalation in the on-going conflict.

I realize it's not a fully rational feeling I have, but I do admit to holding some regrets over my involvement in the matter. The kid might be expelled from school... Maybe without me, he doesn't get into a fight at all and he finds another way out. Or maybe if I had taught him differently, the outcome also is altered.

If the student didn't seek out the fight, and made an honest attempt to avoid the altercation, then I don't think there's anything wrong with what he did. I will not teach my daughters or my students to be victims; if a fight is unavoidable, then their goal is to end the fight quickly and minimize damage to themselves.

A question you might ask yourself is what would the outcome have been if you hadn't trained him how to defend himself? Would he have been badly beaten? Would it have setup a pattern of abuse that extended far into the future? In spite of the possible expulsion, this may still be the best outcome for him in the long term.

Ultimately, everyone has choices to make, and he has to live with the consequences of his choice to fight back. All you did was help provide him with better tools to do so (and from your previous post, I believe you encouraged him to avoid violence if possible).

 

[puunui]

I basically mused about the ethics of teaching martial arts to someone you KNOW will use it in short order.)

I don't have any ethical issue with teaching martial arts to someone who I know will use it in short order.

 

[StudentCarl]

I don't have any ethical issue with teaching martial arts to someone who I know will use it in short order.

I agree with what you wrote as applied to this situation, but taken any further, it leaves open the question of whether there is anyone you would not teach. I would be interested to know any conditions you would place on accepting a student under the above conditions. When would you not accept a student?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree with what you wrote as applied to this situation, but taken any further, it leaves open the question of whether there is anyone you would not teach. I would be interested to know any conditions you would place on accepting a student under the above conditions. When would you not accept a student?

Even though I have seen a lot of people, both here and elsewhere, make strong statements regarding who they will and will not teach, I suspect that very, very few instructors turn away students for ethical reasons. Aside from whether or not a school can afford to, people who will display the sorts of traits that would cause us to decline teaching them will likely not display them when they sign up. More likely, they will come out over the course of time in practice, assuming that they come out at all.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

I agree with what you wrote as applied to this situation, but taken any further, it leaves open the question of whether there is anyone you would not teach. I would be interested to know any conditions you would place on accepting a student under the above conditions. When would you not accept a student?

Yes, there are people I don't want to teach. Mainly if I don't like them personally or they don't listen, or they are disruptive to the class and/or get into conflicts with the students. Then I ask them to leave. I try to be patient. But at this point of the journey for me, if it's going to be a hassle, then I am not interested. I don't teach for money, never did, so I have the luxury of choosing who I can and want to teach. No one is entitled to learn from anyone else and no teacher is obligated to teach everyone.

 

[leadleg]

Yes, there are people I don't want to teach. Mainly if I don't like them personally or they don't listen, or they are disruptive to the class and/or get into conflicts with the students. Then I ask them to leave. I try to be patient. But at this point of the journey for me, if it's going to be a hassle, then I am not interested. I don't teach for money, never did, so I have the luxury of choosing who I can and want to teach. No one is entitled to learn from anyone else and no teacher is obligated to teach everyone.

Every time I hear someone say they don't have to teach someone because they don't charge money for lessons I wonder who are these people who teach someone they don't want to?
I have asked many people to leave for various reasons and have never given a thought about not getting their money.
I have handed money back to parents who paid months in advance and told them to come back when the child has matured.........
I think that some people think Dojang owners are always tight for cash, scraping in every cent, worrying if they will be open next month...
I do not know anyone with a commercial school who would train anyone who were disruptive etc..
There are some stories out there and I do know some people nickle and dime their students but they usually don't last.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Every time I hear someone say they don't have to teach someone because they don't charge money for lessons I wonder who are these people who teach someone they don't want to?
I have asked many people to leave for various reasons and have never given a thought about not getting their money.
I have handed money back to parents who paid months in advance and told them to come back when the child has matured.........
I think that some people think Dojang owners are always tight for cash, scraping in every cent, worrying if they will be open next month...
I do not know anyone with a commercial school who would train anyone who were disruptive etc..
There are some stories out there and I do know some people nickle and dime their students but they usually don't last.

Immature or disruptive students are one set of issues, but I don't see an inherent ethical issue in instructing them; merely one that tries one's patience.

Usually, when the ethical issue comes up, people are talking about teaching someone who will go out and 'use their powers for bad.' My earlier response was in regards to this sort of person. Some are individuals who simply enjoy hurting others. Some just like to fight and want to add more weapons to their arsenal. Some may be criminals. Or it could be the schoolyard bully.

People can be very good at hiding what they truly are. Some schoolyard bullies behave beautifully while being supervised by adults, and MA classes generally have a greater level of hands-on supervision by the instructor.

I think that turning away students for ethical reasons is a challenge (though I don't feel that it is impossible). Teaching privately, I have declined one student, though it was not for ethical reasons. He came to observe a class and his behavior was so bad off the floor that I refuse to deal with him on the floor. Kicker was that he was a junior blackbelt from a school that I have a very high regard for, which really shocked me.

Daniel