Absorb What is Useful

[Wing Woo Gar]

As a beginner aikidoist I am finding the method very interesting and I see a lot of value in understanding this approach to leaning and developing skills in joint locking and understanding the structure and how it affects the application of the techniques. This stuff can be effective even with sloppy technique and too much “muscling”. It is far more effective when technique is accurate and timing is precise and structure is on-target. It becomes effortless. That is what we strive for in our practice.

These techniques can be destructive with a very very small application beyond “just enough”. I cannot figure out how to safely practice that kind of thing in a faster-paced sparring scenario. Some things cannot be safely done at full speed like that. So we work methodically and cooperatively to help each other develop the skill without damaging each other. I don’t see another way to do it.

Dr Yang is encouraging us to speed up AND resist as we progress. We are on the second of six levels with around 130 total techniques in his Chin na system. Using his Shaolin white crane for entries to the Chin na locks has added a layer of complexity that I really like. I can see this stuff being very useful for an opponent that needs to get grips on me. The Shaolin white crane leans heavily to defense which is quite different than my primary gung fu style which is very aggressive. It’s giving me a lot of new insights on how to blend these ideas. At some point I would like to explore his long fist style but I only have so much time. My body doesn’t really seem to want to train more than 10 or so hours a week currently. Maybe Summer…

 

[drop bear]

The major reason your garbage crank a move doesn't work slow is because to don't have mechanical advantage over the other person.

If you can work out that mechanical advantage. Not only will you be able to do moves safely in training. But you will also be fundamentally better at fighting.

But it means you might loose more at sparring because you will screw the timing or the details and they will muscle out. And you will have to have back up plans for when they do.

So let's use the bjj arm bar as there is a lot of resource material on it.

Now if you go for the arm bar slow. They can defend it. And you can quite often get stuck there.

And you can sometimes fix that problem by reefing on the arm untill something gives.

Or you can change the mechanics of the arm bar until you can still apply it in a safe manner.

I am not kidding when I say get better.

 

[drop bear]

This kind of crap isn't necessary. You can do standing arm cranks slow enough that they get the message.

 

[HighKick]

This kind of crap isn't necessary. You can do standing arm cranks slow enough that they get the message.

I had to watch the videos a few times, but this is also LEO 'control movement'. But I have always heard it called an outside chicken wing. I have never practiced BJJ so I do not know the vernacular. In wrestling, we called it a reverse elbow.

 

[Flying Crane]

Dr Yang is encouraging us to speed up AND resist as we progress. We are on the second of six levels with around 130 total techniques in his Chin na system. Using his Shaolin white crane for entries to the Chin na locks has added a layer of complexity that I really like. I can see this stuff being very useful for an opponent that needs to get grips on me. The Shaolin white crane leans heavily to defense which is quite different than my primary gung fu style which is very aggressive. It’s giving me a lot of new insights on how to blend these ideas. At some point I would like to explore his long fist style but I only have so much time. My body doesn’t really seem to want to train more than 10 or so hours a week currently. Maybe Summer…

I suppose there is some basic philosophical differences between his chin-na and aikido in terms of how to approach the training. I am not there to see how you guys are doing the training so I cannot comment on it. But I have a hard time seeing how it can be done safely with resistance and speed, especially when people are new to the material. Some of the locks we are doing put you very quickly into an extremely compromised position where all it would take is a slight bit of extra pressure or torque and all kinds of joint destruction would follow. So I just dunno. Be careful.

Dr. Yang has a few books on his chin-na that I read a few years ago. While there is a lot of material in those books and everything had a unique name, I remember reaching the conclusion that there were really only a dozen or so different locks, and everything was mostly variations on those locks or variations on the pathway to get to the lock depending on the attack. So there is either a lot of material or a little, depending on how you define a technique. The lineage of aikido that I am in goes with the “little” approach, seeing the commonalities in the technique and recognizing that the same lock can be reached from many different starting points which makes them variations on a theme rather than truly different techniques.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I suppose there is some basic philosophical differences between his chin-na and aikido in terms of how to approach the training. I am not there to see how you guys are doing the training so I cannot comment on it. But I have a hard time seeing how it can be done safely with resistance and speed, especially when people are new to the material. Some of the locks we are doing put you very quickly into an extremely compromised position where all it would take is a slight bit of extra pressure or torque and all kinds of joint destruction would follow. So I just dunno. Be careful.

Dr. Yang has a few books on his chin-na that I read a few years ago. While there is a lot of material in those books and everything had a unique name, I remember reaching the conclusion that there were really only a dozen or so different locks, and everything was mostly variations on those locks or variations on the pathway to get to the lock depending on the attack. So there is either a lot of material or a little, depending on how you define a technique. The lineage of aikido that I am in goes with the “little” approach, seeing the commonalities in the technique and recognizing that the same lock can be reached from many different starting points which makes them variations on a theme rather than truly different techniques.

Back about 30 years ago, when I was at a seminar at YMAA in Boston, when that was still Dr Yang's main school, he was talking about a book of basic Qinna, I was looking forward to it because I too had read his books on the subject and thought there had to be an easier way to do this. But that book never materialized. No doubt in my mind Dr Yang is a master of Qinna, but the best qinna I have seen was my taijiquan shifu who takes a much simpler root with his qinna..basically there are only so many ways a joint can move with out pain.... he likes to keep it simple

 

[Flying Crane]

Back about 30 years ago, when I was at a seminar at YMAA in Boston, when that was still Dr Yang's main school, he was talking about a book with basic Qinna, I was looking forward to it because I too had read his books on the subject and thought there had to be an easier way to do this. But that book never materialized. No doubt in my mind Dr Yang is a master of Qinna, but the best qinna I have seen was my taijiquan shifu who takes a much simpler root with his qinna

I will say that I am extremely Impressed with the capabilities that my aikido sensei has shown. The subtle details that he can nail down, as well as help you see and work towards, is really amazing in how it makes the difference between effortless effectiveness and the need to muscle though and force the technique. The latter can work if you are simply interested in application, but the former works much much better although developing that level of skill takes a lot of training.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I will say that I am extremely Impressed with the capabilities that my aikido sensei has shown. The subtle details that he can nail down, as well as help you see and work towards, is really amazing in how it makes the difference between effortless effectiveness and the need to muscle though and force the technique. The latter can work if you are simply interested in application, but the former works much much better although developing that level of skill takes a lot of training.

Saw a lot of that with my daughter's Aikido Sensei, very small, easy movements, quick throws and locks, he was very impressive

I'm going to go check out a Kokikai Aikido school soon, been reading about it and I like what I am reading. Just not sure my knees will handle it

 

[Flying Crane]

Saw a lot of that with my daughter's Aikido Sensei, very small, easy movements, quick throws and locks, he was very impressive

I'm going to go check out a Kokikai Aikido school soon, been reading about it and I like what I am reading. Just not sure my knees will handle it

My knees are healthy so I don’t have concerns about that, but nothing we have done so far gives me concern. We are very methodical in the training, and that is for the safety of our partners.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I suppose there is some basic philosophical differences between his chin-na and aikido in terms of how to approach the training. I am not there to see how you guys are doing the training so I cannot comment on it. But I have a hard time seeing how it can be done safely with resistance and speed, especially when people are new to the material. Some of the locks we are doing put you very quickly into an extremely compromised position where all it would take is a slight bit of extra pressure or torque and all kinds of joint destruction would follow. So I just dunno. Be careful.

Dr. Yang has a few books on his chin-na that I read a few years ago. While there is a lot of material in those books and everything had a unique name, I remember reaching the conclusion that there were really only a dozen or so different locks, and everything was mostly variations on those locks or variations on the pathway to get to the lock depending on the attack. So there is either a lot of material or a little, depending on how you define a technique. The lineage of aikido that I am in goes with the “little” approach, seeing the commonalities in the technique and recognizing that the same lock can be reached from many different starting points which makes them variations on a theme rather than truly different techniques.

This is very true. Although there are many techniques, they are grouped in similarly used sections that are really meant to give you the theory of each group.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I suppose there is some basic philosophical differences between his chin-na and aikido in terms of how to approach the training. I am not there to see how you guys are doing the training so I cannot comment on it. But I have a hard time seeing how it can be done safely with resistance and speed, especially when people are new to the material. Some of the locks we are doing put you very quickly into an extremely compromised position where all it would take is a slight bit of extra pressure or torque and all kinds of joint destruction would follow. So I just dunno. Be careful.

Dr. Yang has a few books on his chin-na that I read a few years ago. While there is a lot of material in those books and everything had a unique name, I remember reaching the conclusion that there were really only a dozen or so different locks, and everything was mostly variations on those locks or variations on the pathway to get to the lock depending on the attack. So there is either a lot of material or a little, depending on how you define a technique. The lineage of aikido that I am in goes with the “little” approach, seeing the commonalities in the technique and recognizing that the same lock can be reached from many different starting points which makes them variations on a theme rather than truly different techniques.

Exactly on the mark here. He says that you really only pick out about a dozen to use that really work for you. You only need to remember them individually if you plan to teach it.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The major reason your garbage crank a move doesn't work slow is because to don't have mechanical advantage over the other person.

If you can work out that mechanical advantage. Not only will you be able to do moves safely in training. But you will also be fundamentally better at fighting.

But it means you might loose more at sparring because you will screw the timing or the details and they will muscle out. And you will have to have back up plans for when they do.

So let's use the bjj arm bar as there is a lot of resource material on it.

Now if you go for the arm bar slow. They can defend it. And you can quite often get stuck there.

And you can sometimes fix that problem by reefing on the arm untill something gives.

Or you can change the mechanics of the arm bar until you can still apply it in a safe manner.

I am not kidding when I say get better.

The major reason your garbage crank a move doesn't work slow is because to don't have mechanical advantage over the other person.

If you can work out that mechanical advantage. Not only will you be able to do moves safely in training. But you will also be fundamentally better at fighting.

But it means you might loose more at sparring because you will screw the timing or the details and they will muscle out. And you will have to have back up plans for when they do.

So let's use the bjj arm bar as there is a lot of resource material on it.

Now if you go for the arm bar slow. They can defend it. And you can quite often get stuck there.

And you can sometimes fix that problem by reefing on the arm untill something gives.

Or you can change the mechanics of the arm bar until you can still apply it in a safe manner.

I am not kidding when I say get better.

Correct me here, but this has everything to do with the angles. I’m able to sink about half of the techniques with no force at all if my angle is correct. I’m still new to this, so if I’m distracted or somehow my angle is off I can feel what’s wrong but not until after I missed the mark. Sometimes I can correct it and get a slightly different lock. I appreciate you taking the time to elaborat, thank you.

 

[Flying Crane]

Exactly on the mark here. He says that you really only pick out about a dozen to use that really work for you. You only need to remember them individually if you plan to teach it.

Having come from a kenpo background where the mentality was “more is better” which leads to an excessively large and cumbersome curriculum, in my opinion, I think these things can be taught in a much more streamlined fashion even if it means dumping all the variations as recognized parcels. Instead, the lock itself would be taught so that it is well understood and the skill is there to apply it effectively without forcing it. That is the foundational knowledge. Then, each lock could be explored for ways to get there, how it could be used in defense of various typical attacks, etc. but without codifying all of that into a formalized curriculum or maybe just codifying a small amount of it. The goal is to give the student the tools and the vision to understand what is possible, and then act spontaneously with something that works, rather than have a long list of formal curriculum.

I am not trying to critique Dr. Yang’s method and I think you are fortunate to have him so close to you that you can work with him. I am not there to experience it and I know that he has an excellent reputation in Chinese martial arts. But with my kenpo background I simply shudder a little when I hear that a method has a long list of techniques in their curriculum. I’ve been down that path and I believe there are better ways to structure curriculum.

These are the comments of an outsider who is looking in, and probably is not in a position to have an opinion on the topic, but likes to shoot his mouth off anyways.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Having come from a kenpo background where the mentality was “more is better” which leads to an excessively large and cumbersome curriculum, in my opinion, I think these things can be taught in a much more streamlined fashion even if it means dumping all the variations as recognized parcels. Instead, the lock itself would be taught so that it is well understood and the skill is there to apply it effectively without forcing it. That is the foundational knowledge. Then, each lock could be explored for ways to get there, how it could be used in defense of various typical attacks, etc. but without codifying all of that into a formalized curriculum or maybe just codifying a small amount of it. The goal is to give the student the tools and the vision to understand what is possible, and then act spontaneously with something that works, rather than have a long list of formal curriculum.

I am not trying to critique Dr. Yang’s method and I think you are fortunate to have him so close to you that you can work with him. I am not there to experience it and I know that he has an excellent reputation in Chinese martial arts. But with my kenpo background I simply shudder a little when I hear that a method has a long list of techniques in their curriculum. I’ve been down that path and I believe there are better ways to structure curriculum.

These are the comments of an outsider who is looking in, and probably is not in a position to have an opinion on the topic, but likes to shoot his mouth off anyways.

I appreciate you. You aren’t far away, maybe come visit and see for yourself. It’s a very different way of learning for me. My teachers did not teach this way at all, so it’s like a whole new world for me. Dr Yang doesn’t like some of the ways I do things in his white crane class. I take that in stride and do his style the way he teaches it. It feels a little awkward in places but in other ways it is synergistic. I just try to stay open and not judge any of it through my past experience. I’m just barely smart enough to know that I don’t know. In any case I’m learning some useful stuff that I am able to apply and Dr Yang is a lot of fun to be around. He is really giving me and my former lead student the foie gras gung fu teaching. There seems to be a lot of material but I think it’s just that his writing and explanation is exhaustive. He has written several books on Chin na. He can and does effortlessly apply the techniques on us. These Chin na sessions can be punishing and great fun at the same time.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My knees are healthy so I don’t have concerns about that, but nothing we have done so far gives me concern. We are very methodical in the training, and that is for the safety of our partners.

Shikko and seiza aere my concerns. With the fake knee Seiza is literally impossible

 

[Flying Crane]

Shikko and seiza aere my concerns. With the fake knee Seiza is literally impossible

Yeah, I can see how those would be problematic. In our school, we don’t spend much time doing them.

 

[Flying Crane]

I appreciate you. You aren’t far away, maybe come visit and see for yourself. It’s a very different way of learning for me. My teachers did not teach this way at all, so it’s like a whole new world for me. Dr Yang doesn’t like some of the ways I do things in his white crane class. I take that in stride and do his style the way he teaches it. It feels a little awkward in places but in other ways it is synergistic. I just try to stay open and not judge any of it through my past experience. I’m just barely smart enough to know that I don’t know. In any case I’m learning some useful stuff that I am able to apply and Dr Yang is a lot of fun to be around. He is really giving me and my former lead student the foie gras gung fu teaching. There seems to be a lot of material but I think it’s just that his writing and explanation is exhaustive. He has written several books on Chin na. He can and does effortlessly apply the techniques on us. These Chin na sessions can be punishing and great fun at the same time.

Yeah, I think that is the best approach, don’t try to turn his stuff into a variant of what you are already doing. That is a short-circuit and won’t allow you to understand it on its own terms. I think it is important to approach every system that you study with that mindset.

Would love to come up there some time. I’ve never been that far north in California. It takes some planning though, it’s a solid five or more hours drive so it has to be a long weekend or something so it makes sense.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yeah, I can see how those would be problematic. In our school, we don’t spend much time doing them.

I will check out the Kokikai school and talk to the sensei and see what he has to say

 

[drop bear]

Correct me here, but this has everything to do with the angles. I’m able to sink about half of the techniques with no force at all if my angle is correct. I’m still new to this, so if I’m distracted or somehow my angle is off I can feel what’s wrong but not until after I missed the mark. Sometimes I can correct it and get a slightly different lock. I appreciate you taking the time to elaborat, thank you.

It has to do with you being in a strong position and them being weak. Which can be some very subtle differences. And it is not always intuitive.

The issue is that almost nobody who is any good is putting much time in to your crank a locks. (And this is because there is no real money in it. Sports guys can't do them so they don't bother. And crank a lock guys don't have to be very good. So they don't bother)

So you have to come at the mechanics sideways a bit. Find similar ideas and re work them.

 

[Flying Crane]

I will check out the Kokikai school and talk to the sensei and see what he has to say

I think that only a maniac or a mass murderer would refuse to allow you to work around that kind of issue.