A Uniform Should Be Just That?

[Steve]

If it's worn to show respect, that makes the group a patriotic organization. Which makes it perfectly acceptable.



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

Come on. Are you comparing your commercial business, a Tkd school, to the veterans of foreign wars or daughters of the American recolution?

I'm on an iPad, so linking is a pain. But the U.S. senate has an FAQ that addresses some common breaches of flag etiquette. This is what they say, which essentially echoes what I've said before, which is that if you don't care, so be it. But its still tacky:

Use of the Flag in Jewelry, Commercial Products, Wearing Apparel, and Advertising

The Flag Code addresses the impropriety of using the flag as an article of personal adornment, a design on items of temporary use, and item of clothing.49 The evident purpose of these suggested restraints is to limit the commercial or common usage of the flag and, thus, maintain its dignity. The 1976 amendments to the Code recognized the wearing of a flag patch or pin on the left side (near the heart) of uniforms of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.50 The Code also states that the flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever.51

While wearing the colors may be in poor taste and offensive to many, it is important to remember that the Flag Code is intended as a guide to be followed on a purely voluntary basis to insure proper respect for the flag. [/i]It is, at least, questionable whether statutes placing civil or criminal penalties on the wearing of clothing bearing or resembling a flag could be constitutionally enforced in light of Supreme Court decisions in the area of flag desecration.

 

[Danny T]

We're you guys aware that it's disrespectful and a breach of flag etiquette to wear a USA flag patch on an athletic uniform? While most people don't know or care, for those of us who do, it looks bad.

Not certain this is correct.
The flag code prohibits using the flag:
"for any advertising purpose" and also states that the flag "should not be embroidered, printed, or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use...

"The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery", and "No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform".

"When displayed on uniforms; flag patches are worn on the right shoulder, following the vehicle convention with the union toward the front."

 

[Tez3]

Not certain this is correct.
The flag code prohibits using the flag:
"for any advertising purpose" and also states that the flag "should not be embroidered, printed, or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use...

"The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery", and "No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform".

"When displayed on uniforms; flag patches are worn on the right shoulder, following the vehicle convention with the union toward the front."

What, no knickers with a flag on? We bung our Union flag on anything we want, we also have national flags for each country and county flags for each county but they are only flags to us. You can't however use the Royal Standards, they aren't flags, they are Standards for the use of the monarch only. We don't seem to have any particular ideas about flags, we have military Colours of course, except they aren't always 'flags' in one case they are field guns. They are sacrosanct, some being hundreds of years old though those are laid up now and new ones used. But the Union Flag, we can put it on anything, it's patriotic to do so

 

[dancingalone]

Come on. Are you comparing your commercial business, a Tkd school, to the veterans of foreign wars or daughters of the American recolution?

All of the TKD dojang I've visited in the USA have the American and South Korean flags prominently displayed. Students usually bow to them one way or another before joining and leaving class. Whatever the true 'rule' is regarding patriotic private organizations are, I don't think it completely insane for a TKD school to regard itself as a patriotic organization. I mean, Jhoon Rhee, even has one of his musical hyung set to something like Stars and and Stripes Forever, though I'm not entirely sure of the exact song.

 

[Steve]

Not certain this is correct.
The flag code prohibits using the flag:
"for any advertising purpose" and also states that the flag "should not be embroidered, printed, or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use...

"The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery", and "No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform".

"When displayed on uniforms; flag patches are worn on the right shoulder, following the vehicle convention with the union toward the front."

In the first part, they are talking specifically about athletic uniforms, which a TKD dobok would be, IMO. The "uniforms" in the last bullet refers to the uniform of a first responder (fire fighter, police officer, etc) or a member of the US military.

Look, the thing is, my intent was to share some flag etiquette, not to start an argument. We can disagree on whether it's a big deal or not, and that's okay. But there is actually a public law 94-344 that is clear on what is and is not okay to do with the American flag. It states the following, verbatim (emphasis mine):

No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."

As I said before, there are some organizations that are okay to wear a flag patch, but a commercial, for profit, athletic organization just isn't a "patriotic organization." The American Legion, the VFW, American Red Cross are the biggies. There are many others along the lines of the Daughters of the American Revolution, Sons of the Revolution and along these lines. I believe (but don't quote me) that the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts of America are considered to be patriotic organizations, as well.

There is room for you guys to believe that this no big deal, and I respect that. But, there's really not a lot of room for interpretation here. The guidelines are very clear.

Edit: Found a more up to date link to the code on Senate.gov: http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf

 

[Steve]

What, no knickers with a flag on? We bung our Union flag on anything we want, we also have national flags for each country and county flags for each county but they are only flags to us. You can't however use the Royal Standards, they aren't flags, they are Standards for the use of the monarch only. We don't seem to have any particular ideas about flags, we have military Colours of course, except they aren't always 'flags' in one case they are field guns. They are sacrosanct, some being hundreds of years old though those are laid up now and new ones used. But the Union Flag, we can put it on anything, it's patriotic to do so

Different countries with different rules and different guidelines. You can certainly find American Flag knickers, but that doesn't make it patriotic.

 

[Steve]

All of the TKD dojang I've visited in the USA have the American and South Korean flags prominently displayed. Students usually bow to them one way or another before joining and leaving class. Whatever the true 'rule' is regarding patriotic private organizations are, I don't think it completely insane for a TKD school to regard itself as a patriotic organization. I mean, Jhoon Rhee, even has one of his musical hyung set to something like Stars and and Stripes Forever, though I'm not entirely sure of the exact song.

I understand that this may be common within the culture of TKD, but I believe that there is a clear distinction between a TKD school and the American Red Cross, the American Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars or other "patriotic organizations."

Once again, we're talking about what is respectful and disrespectful, not legal or illegal. Nobody is going to mandate that you stop doing what you're doing. But, at least now you'll know that the patch on the uniform is a clear breach of flag etiquette. Provided that you are following the rules for correctly displaying the flag in your dojang, hanging it is probably just fine.

 

[dancingalone]

I understand that this may be common within the culture of TKD, but I believe that there is a clear distinction between a TKD school and the American Red Cross, the American Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars or other "patriotic organizations."

Got a reference for how Congress defined 'patriotic organizations'? I was unable to find one in P.L. 94-344 which is the source document for proper display of the US flag. Thanks.

 

[TrueJim]

Interestingly, at the school my son and I attend:

• We do have the Korean and U.S. flags on the shoulder patches of the Kup uniforms, and also of course
• We salute the U.S. flag at the end of class, but also
• During Kup belt testing, the students are often asked many questions about the U.S. flag: what the colors symbolize, what the stars and stripes symbolize, etc. The questions are part of the belt test.

Even though most of our instructors were born and raised in Korea, they're real big on U.S. patriotism. I was pleasantly surprised to discover how much "respect the U.S. flag" sentiment there was in our school.

 

[Steve]

Got a reference for how Congress defined 'patriotic organizations'? I was unable to find one in P.L. 94-344 which is the source document for proper display of the US flag. Thanks.

Do a little research on it and apply some common sense, and I'm sure the distinction will be clear. A "for profit", commercial TKD dojang is not a patriotic organization. It's a business. Really, not to be obstinate, but I think this is as close to black and white as we can get. And once again, if it's not a big deal to you or your organization to be in breach of flag etiquette, so be it. Nobody is going to come in and fine you or censure you. But, people who cherish the flag as a living symbol of our country know what is and is not okay, and we notice.

 

[Steve]

Interestingly, at the school my son and I attend:

• We do have the Korean and U.S. flags on the shoulder patches of the Kup uniforms, and also of course
• We salute the U.S. flag at the end of class, but also
• During Kup belt testing, the students are often asked many questions about the U.S. flag: what the colors symbolize, what the stars and stripes symbolize, etc. The questions are part of the belt test.

Even though most of our instructors were born and raised in Korea, they're real big on U.S. patriotism. I was pleasantly surprised to discover how much "respect the U.S. flag" sentiment there was in our school.

Breaches of etiquette are often well meaning attempts to show respect. It was really in that spirit that I was sharing the actual flag etiquette with you guys. Simple ignorance isn't any kind of problem at all. There are tons of things we do with the best of intentions that miss the mark. This is one of them. People just don't know, and as we don't have any kind of civics classes in schools anymore (or at least, they are rare), our kids are not being taught HOW to properly respect the flag or demonstrate patriotism for their country.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Steve just a question in where would the Olympic athletes fall? If I am correct on their uniforms they have the Olympic flag either embroidered, screen printed, etc. They are sanctioned through our government and receive funding. Also Jhoon Rhee a Tae Kwon Do pioneer also taught and probably still teaches some United States Congress people and his organization has the flag on their uniform? He, I also believe has several commendations from Congress. I have attached a couple of photos. The gentleman in the photo with him was a former congressman and also an officer in the Air Force.

Just a note in that I agree with you but believe the cat was let out of the bag long ago.

 

[dancingalone]

Do a little research on it and apply some common sense, and I'm sure the distinction will be clear. A "for profit", commercial TKD dojang is not a patriotic organization. It's a business. Really, not to be obstinate, but I think this is as close to black and white as we can get. And once again, if it's not a big deal to you or your organization to be in breach of flag etiquette, so be it. Nobody is going to come in and fine you or censure you. But, people who cherish the flag as a living symbol of our country know what is and is not okay, and we notice.

I'm sure you didn't mean that to sound as patronizing as it read to me.

I don't actually use a flag patch myself, but no I'm not simply going to accept your word for it, Steve. It seems that if this is something important to our Congress (and it appears to be since they took the trouble to draft a law about it), then it should be easy enough to find the legal definition of patriotic organization as it pertains to P.L. 94-344. Help me out?

 

[Steve]

I'm sure you didn't mean that to sound as patronizing as it read to me.

I don't actually use a flag patch myself, but no I'm not simply going to accept your word for it, Steve. It seems that if this is something important to our Congress (and it appears to be since they took the trouble to draft a law about it), then it should be easy enough to find the legal definition of patriotic organization as it pertains to P.L. 94-344. Help me out?

I'm really sorry of it sounded patronizing and thanks for the benefit of the doubt. Not intended.

I haven't looked for a "legal" definition of "patriotic organization" although I wouldn't be surprised to find one. But, perhaps you can help me out, because I really can't understand your position. Are you seriously comparing a for-profit, commercial, athletic business to a patriotic organization such as the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the American Red Cross or the American Legion? Have you ever been to a Legion Hall? I am struggling to comprehend how you think there is a gray area. It's truly not intended to be patronizing. It's genuine confusion in the face of what just flat out doesn't make any sense to me at all. Is there really any question about whether Kim's TKD dojang a "patriotic organization?"

Edit: Another question, do you understand how it's (at least) mildly offensive to compare a commercial, TKD business to these patriotic organizations? We're moving out of passive disrespect for the flag with good intentions to a more intentional disregard for what these patriotic organizations exist to do and who they serve.

 

[Steve]

Steve just a question in where would the Olympic athletes fall? If I am correct on their uniforms they have the Olympic flag either embroidered, screen printed, etc. They are sanctioned through our government and receive funding. Also Jhoon Rhee a Tae Kwon Do pioneer also taught and probably still teaches some United States Congress people and his organization has the flag on their uniform? He, I also believe has several commendations from Congress. I have attached a couple of photos. The gentleman in the photo with him was a former congressman and also an officer in the Air Force.

Just a note in that I agree with you but believe the cat was let out of the bag long ago.

It's not against the law. I will go back and just reiterate that my intent wasn't to torpedo this thread. Rather, it was genuinely just to share with you guys a little insight into a very common breach of flag etiquette.

I'll also add, just for what it is, that there are other informal or unwritten guidelines. For example, in an executive portrait (such as for the president), if present, the flag should be over the right shoulder (left as you are viewing it), and the stripes should run diagonally down toward the center of the picture (not out to the edge). But congressmen and Senators don't (to my knowledge) get a lowdown on flag etiquette, either. So, there are times when I've seen "official" portraits that are contrary to this. Doesn't make it right, and frankly, if I'm a staffer I'm not going to correct my boss on something like that, even if I know better.

Point I'm trying to make is that being an executive in government doesn't come with a handbook that covers all of the intriquacies of flag etiquette, and we see breaches all the time.

And, let's all remember, we're not talking about the olympics. We're talking about a privately owned, commercially run, for-profit, sports business.

 

[dancingalone]

I haven't looked for a "legal" definition of "patriotic organization" although I wouldn't be surprised to find one.

I googled around for 15 minutes and didn't find anything. I consider my internet research skills to be above average. Makes me wonder if the term isn't intentionally vague.

But, perhaps you can help me out, because I really can't understand your position. Are you seriously comparing a for-profit, commercial, athletic business to a patriotic organization such as the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the American Red Cross or the American Legion? Have you ever been to a Legion Hall? I am struggling to comprehend how you think there is a gray area. It's truly not intended to be patronizing. It's genuine confusion in the face of what just flat out doesn't make any sense to me at all. Is there really any question about whether Kim's TKD dojang a "patriotic organization?"

I don't know that I would try to apply some measure of grading or authenticity to something as nebulous as patriotism. I mean do we really need a test here like how beef is graded (Choice, Select, etc.)? It seems like any such attempt would be fraught with difficulty and prone to politicization. Without mentioning any groups, I will put forth the idea that if a group or organization, non-profit or not, says it is a patriotic one it's good enough for me.

Furthermore, I'd really like to see a Congressional definition if it exists. Again, I wonder if the term isn't deliberately vague and whether there is any relevant judicial issue that came before the Supreme Court about what is and isn't one.

Edit: Another question, do you understand how it's (at least) mildly offensive to compare a commercial, TKD business to these patriotic organizations? We're moving out of passive disrespect for the flag with good intentions to a more intentional disregard for what these patriotic organizations exist to do and who they serve.

Again, I don't care to get into something like purity testing. It's a fruitless endeavor and causes more harm than good.

 

[TrueJim]

We're talking about a privately owned, commercially run, for-profit, sports business.

Yes, but what if it's a patriotic privately owned, commercially run, for-profit, sports business? Just kidding.

Personally, I agree that the correct interpretation of the statute is that flags should not be put on sports uniforms. But, personally, I also think that that particular clause within the statute is outdated. For what it's worth, I like seeing the U.S. flag on U.S. Olympic athletes...to me that actually is patriotic, as is the patch on our kids' doboks. But at the end of the day, I'd have to agree that Steve is technically correct.

 

[WaterGal]

I do like uniforms being, well, uniform. I can't help but be amused when I see people at tournaments that have 20 patches all over their uniform - "most improved", "best kicks", gold stars, dragons, "demo team" with the words on fire, etc - and a rainbow of different tape on their belt.

Our TKD color belts all wear identical plain white doboks with the school logo on it. TKD Dan/poom belts wear identical WTF-approved black lapel uniforms, also with the logo. Mr WaterGal wears one with stripes on the arms and legs and "Master ____" embroidered on it. When/if we got other masters (I got a couple years still...), they'll get the same.

The only patches we use are a US flag patch on the right side for black belts (which I didn't realize was a violation of the flag code - we've had a lot of police, military, and firefighter students/families and none of them ever said anything).

For the belts, we do give embroidered black belts with name and rank stripes, and instructors have "Kyobum" before their name, which is the only thing different between instructors and regular black belts in terms of dress. We only use tape for the Little Dragons kids, because it takes them 6-12 months to complete each belt (they're expected to know all the same stuff as the regular TKD students) and they need the progress markers.

Edit: Also, no t-shirts. Unless you spilled something on your uniform 5 minutes before class or something like that, it's full uniform, always. Even in the summer. That's what A/C is for.

 

[WaterGal]

Aside: one of our former-K-Tiger instructors just returned from Korea with some white Y-neck (black trimmed) tops with black bottoms. Sharp sharp sharp!

Oh yeah, the new poomse uniforms look pretty nice. I've been thinking of getting one for myself. It would kinda undermine the whole "uniform" thing, though, and then there'd be the issue of who gets to wear one etc etc, so I don't know. Maybe.

 

[TrueJim]

They do look snappy. As opposed to.... WTF WTF New Female Taekwondo Uniform Design