A Teacher Asking Students To Destroy Notes?

[Bob Hubbard]

A Teacher Asking Students To Destroy Notes? on Saturday January 24, @02:14AM

Posted by Soulskill on Saturday January 24, @02:14AM
from the learn-until-the-test dept.
zwei2stein writes "I found this question with far-reaching implications in the off-topic section of a forum I frequent: 'My economics teacher is forcing us to give up all of our work for the semester. Every page of notes and paper must be turned over to her to be destroyed to prevent future students from copying it. My binder was in my backpack, and she went into my backpack to take it. Is that legal?' Besides the issue with private property invasion, which was the trigger of that post, there is much more important question: Can a teacher ask a student not to retain knowledge? How does IP law relate to teaching and sharing knowledge? Whose property are those notes?"
- From Slashdot

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I had 2 notebooks. The one I used in school, written in chicken scratch, and the one on my computer, typed so it was readable, printed and diagrams copied over neatly. That one stayed at home.

I think the teacher in this case was in the wrong.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

More info: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10351058

 

[MA-Caver]

I had 2 notebooks. The one I used in school, written in chicken scratch, and the one on my computer, typed so it was readable, printed and diagrams copied over neatly. That one stayed at home.

I think the teacher in this case was in the wrong.

I agree... going through the student's backpack is like rummaging through someone's home. Even if there is suspicion the teacher still can't go through it... even though they do anyway, if I'm not mistaken it's illegal search.

 

[MBuzzy]

Not in a school it isn't. In most cases, many of a child's rights are forfeit in a school. I don't know if this is true across the board and I'm not saying that I think it is right, but as long as you are on school grounds, they generally have the right to search and seize without provocation or reason.

As for notes being taken....I am SHOCKED at the audacity of that one. Your notes are yours so that you can retain them and refer to them later. If they have that many problems with notes being passed along, I have a crazy suggestion...

PUT SOME EFFORT INTO TEACHING! Make new tests every term, varying the homework problems a little. Seriously, if you can't trust the students, it isn't hard to fix. Who cares if they get someone else's notes, it is the tests that matter. So CHANGE them. I know, what a crazy idea!

 

[grydth]

My wife is a dean at a large university, and even this strange story pales in comparison to some of what she has had to deal with.

This isn't even an effective anti-plagarism tool, not to even explore the multiple other issues presented.

I would say that the Department Chair, the Dean and the Provost would likely be very receptive to a complaint about this outlandish behavior. Having your parents' lawyer call could really set off the fireworks.

Just a guess on my part....

 

[arnisador]

This is nuts. Most students won't use that material again, but some will wantto refer to it.

Sorry, teachers: You have to make up new exams each year. It isn't new--frats have always kept exam files.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

This is a high school case, from what I've gleened. I also picked up there's a well known teacher in San Antonio who demands you turn in your notebook at year end, grades you on it's completeness, then runs it through a shredder while you watch.

 

[Makalakumu]

It's disrespect of knowledge in favor of numbers and letters that determine status.

The grades and tests have obviously become more important then the material.

 

[jks9199]

High school kids have a much lesser expectation of privacy, even in their personal belongings. Was the teacher out of bounds? Probably. Was it an invasion of the students rights? Probably not. Did it serve her purpose? Not at all. It's simply allowing her to convince herself that she's OK in not creating new tests and new assignments each year... Instead, all she'll do is guarantee that the stuff is "lost" if people want to cheat that way.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Absurd. Here in Ontario, I would have no basis as a teacher to search a student's book bag or locker. The principal would be able to search either in flash, but only in the interests of school safety, recovery of stolen property, etc. The notebook is the student's property. Period. End of story.

Quick example: I once worked in a school where a supply teacher's purse had been lifted. The teacher remembered that she had left the cell phone ringer on. She and the principal paced the hallways with his cell phone and located the item in a locker, which he was legally allowed to open.

Even if this is a preemptive bid to avert plagiarism, this isn't how it's done. Plagiarism is not simply reading other people's materials. A student who goes to the trouble of reading a previous student's work is actually quite well-prepared in my view.

Teachers, by the way, if they are doing their job, share sources, handouts, lessons, and unit plans.

 

[Ramirez]

Absurd. Here in Ontario, I would have no basis as a teacher to search a student's book bag or locker. The principal would be able to search either in flash, but only in the interests of school safety, recovery of stolen property, etc. The notebook is the student's property. Period. End of story.

Quick example: I once worked in a school where a supply teacher's purse had been lifted. The teacher remembered that she had left the cell phone ringer on. She and the principal paced the hallways with his cell phone and located the item in a locker, which he was legally allowed to open.

Even if this is a preemptive bid to avert plagiarism, this isn't how it's done. Plagiarism is not simply reading other people's materials. A student who goes to the trouble of reading a previous student's work is actually quite well-prepared in my view.

Teachers, by the way, if they are doing their job, share sources, handouts, lessons, and unit plans.

I remember in high school a student coming in with a test from an older sibling....which we then proceeded to write, Arnisador is right, sounds like a lazy teacher to me.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I guess it's finally happened and going to college really IS worth nothing now.

 

[jarrod]

if i pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to sit in front of somebody & take notes about what they say, i'm going to keep the notes if i want to.

jf

 

[jarrod]

you know what else? so what if they give the notes to other students. they would still have to study them for the notes to do any good. god forbid the focus be on knowledge.

jf

 

[searcher]

Agreed on that jarrod. I would hate for students to get something out of the class and make something out of themselves.

 

[Marginal]

Is destroying student's work even legal? I know my college professors were legally required to hold assignments etc for seven years.

 

[punisher73]

To go into a student's property requires "reasonable suspicion", which is to say that the to the average person you believe that you have a good reason to search the property and that to the average person both the reason and the scope of the search are, yep you guess it "reasonable".

In schools, this means that Suzie saw Johnny put a baggy in his backpack that looked like drugs. The school now has the "authority" to search in Johnny's backpack/locker to try and find the drugs. It would NOT be reasonable based on the information to suddenly take Johnny into the bathroom and attempt a strip search based on that info alone.

In this case, the teacher was REALLY pushing the legal boudaries for the reason to go into a studen'ts backpack if that was the only reason. There had been no information of a crime being committed or something that was putting students/staff at risk for their safety.

 

[geezer]

you know what else? so what if they give the notes to other students. they would still have to study them for the notes to do any good. god forbid the focus be on knowledge.
jf

Well, I'm a high school teacher... Ok I teach art, but still we do have written assignments and exams. Anyway, I wish more students cared enough to take and share notes. I don't care so much how they learn the material, just so long as they do learn it! And besides, that teacher's actions were pointless anyway. If anyone cared, they could have copied the notes. Really, now that I'm on the other side of the big desk, teachers still seem to look and act as dumb as they did some thirty years ago when I was a student.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Is destroying student's work even legal? I know my college professors were legally required to hold assignments etc for seven years.

When I taught in a community college, it was customary to retain attendance records and grades. That was generally in case a student later challenged a grade. If we're talking about essays, one hopes students are keeping back-ups of their files. In my day, my first stop before handing in a typewritten essay was the library photocopier. A professor might keep a copy of the work in case a later essay looked -- uh -- familiar.

Besides the issue of the legal rights of students, which everyone has made valid arguments about, I just think this teacher is setting a very poor example of scholarship. I had a kid I taught in grades seven and eight come visit me a few weeks ago -- he's been in high school since September. "Mr Nore," he said, "everything you taught me about research in grade eight has really saved me this year with my projects."

My first thought: You mean you saved all the material I gave you?

That doesn't happen every day of the week.