A question to you guys who teach...

[cwk]

I'd just like to know your opinions on teaching beginners and novices.
More specifically, do you think the instructor should teach the students to relax and produce ging properly from the start and really reinforce the idea, not moving on to the next move till the first one is perfect?
or -
do you think that it's easier for the students to learn the basic shapes first, even if they are stiff as a board, and then concentrate on getting them to relax later?

Also a similar question in regards to technique and application-
Do you wait for the student to be able to perform it perfectly in the air before getting them to work with a partner or get them doing partner work from the get go?

A maybe a mix of theses is best?
thoughts?

 

[mook jong man]

I reckon it's better to just get them to concentrate mainly on trying to get their stance right , correct angle of the arms , properly positioned on the centerline etc.

Certainly keep hammering the importance of relaxation to them , but don't expect too much of them as they have a hard enough time already trying to remember everything else.

Also at this stage they don't really have a kinesthetic awareness of their own "optimum" or ultimate angle and the tendency is for them to take the relaxation thing too far and have their angles collapse.
Good structure first , then relaxation.

With the second part of your question , as you said a mix of the two is best.
Have them do it in the air first and check their level of correctness , stance , angles of arms , positioning on centerline , they don't have to be perfect.

If they look like they're halfway to getting it right then start adding resistance in the form of a partner.
The partner will then increase their force in line with the ability of the person doing the technique , all during this time you will be making minor corrections to their technique.

 

[yak sao]

I reckon it's better to just get them to concentrate mainly on trying to get their stance right , correct angle of the arms , properly positioned on the centerline etc.

Certainly keep hammering the importance of relaxation to them , but don't expect too much of them as they have a hard enough time already trying to remember everything else.

Also at this stage they don't really have a kinesthetic awareness of their own "optimum" or ultimate angle and the tendency is for them to take the relaxation thing too far and have their angles collapse.
Good structure first , then relaxation.

With the second part of your question , as you said a mix of the two is best.
Have them do it in the air first and check their level of correctness , stance , angles of arms , positioning on centerline , they don't have to be perfect.

If they look like they're halfway to getting it right then start adding resistance in the form of a partner.
The partner will then increase their force in line with the ability of the person doing the technique , all during this time you will be making minor corrections to their technique.

Totally agree. Beginners misunderstand what is meant by softness in the early stages. They try to emmulate softness, and instead it becomes weakness. Then they stiffen up to compensate and a viscious cycle is created.
Much more important to learn proper structure first. From there, relaxation, while retaining the structure.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Well said yak sau, I agree. I think the shapes/stance should be the most important, I think it's good to mix that in, within several formats, dan chi, some applications, some stuff in the air, footwork by themselves, ect ect, forward supple energy takes some time to develop, it's good to mention it a lot, and show them what it's supposed to feel like, but it's really going to take a nice chunk of time even if they are highly dedicated.

 

[cwk]

Thanks for the input guys, and glad to see we're on the same page.
I started of teaching a little bit at a time and only moving on when the previous part was perfect in every way but progress was very slow , so I've started teaching like you guys have mentioned here and hopefully it'll produce better results.
I think getting them to do more application stuff from the start will help them understand the techniques and concepts better and that in turn should produce better form.

 

[yak sao]

Thanks for the input guys, and glad to see we're on the same page.
I started of teaching a little bit at a time and only moving on when the previous part was perfect in every way but progress was very slow , so I've started teaching like you guys have mentioned here and hopefully it'll produce better results.
I think getting them to do more application stuff from the start will help them understand the techniques and concepts better and that in turn should produce better form.

It definitely takes a balanced approach. I consider the forms as proper structure training, while fighting drills are a way of pressure testing those structures.

I ran across this recently...I may have seen it on here:

Your fighting drills should feel like your chi sau, and your chi sau should feel like your forms.

 

[geezer]

Thanks for the input guys, and glad to see we're on the same page.
I started of teaching a little bit at a time and only moving on when the previous part was perfect in every way but progress was very slow , so I've started teaching like you guys have mentioned here and hopefully it'll produce better results.
I think getting them to do more application stuff from the start will help them understand the techniques and concepts better and that in turn should produce better form.

I agree. As Yak said, you need a balanced approach. My old Chinese sifu demanded near perfection before he'd move you on to the next technique. The idea was to build on a very solid foundatation. The problem is that these things develop very slowly, and many of us come to understand these things better when put into context ...or, as you put it, through application.

One example would be teaching the full rear-waited stance used in my lineage. It's very tough to get students to keep their weight back even when stepping forward ("advancing-step"). So, after teaching the mechanics of how to do this along with some solo drills, we fairly quickly move onto an applied drill in which the student must advance, pursuing a retreating opponent while constantly using his lead leg to give low attacking kicks and defending checks. This drill forces the student to unconsciously maintain back-weighting in order to keep the lead leg in constant play. By creating a meaningful context for what otherwise seems like a very unnatural movement, the students pick up the technique far more quickly than the old school method of solo drilling these steps for days and days until reaching "perfection". Actually either way, it still takes a long time to get it right, but I believe the student progresses to an acceptable level of functionality faster through training application. And it's more fun.

 

[chinaboxer]

IMO the "physics" must be correct first before you can focus on the "physiology". in other words, if the alignment of your skeletal system is incorrect, your muscles have to engage to make up the difference when pressure is applied on that structure. if that happens, you cannot relax the muscle even if you wanted to.

 

[mograph]

I've found this concept to be useful:
1. externally, adopt the proper structure. Expect it to be 95% complete.
2. develop sensitivity by having someone test the structure in specific ways, but at a very low level of force. Some relaxation aids the sensitivity.
3. adjust the structure incrementally and have the testing force adjusted incrementally until you reach 100% completion of structure and 100% testing strength ... at least at this level of understanding.
4. move to the next level, whatever that is.

I just think that a sifu can only see and physically adjust 95% of correct structure; the student must fill in the rest himself at the level of millimeters. I hope that makes sense ...

 

[BlueVino]

I prefer to put students in the proper positions, and working with a partner, pretty early. Relaxation will come later.

This is for a few reasons:

* What I think you mean by "shape" includes position relative to your opponent, which is hard to visualize until you've practiced with a partner.

* I like to get students getting used to having someone punch at them right away. Particularly so they can understand "wrong" right away. It's hard to beat immediate feedback, and "drill" punches can really mess up bad technique.

* It's easier to keep the energy of the class up if the students are working with partners, switching partners around, asking questions, etc. Working in the air, while important throughout training, can be tedious for beginners.

 

[cwk]

Again, thanks for your input guys.