A Mother's Reflections

elder999

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There has been much discussion in the past several years, concerning the sanctity of marriage. Most of this discussion has come about as a result of a push, from some quarters, for the sanction of same gender marriage.

Back in the 1990’s, President Clinton signed the “Defense of Marriage Act,” defining marriage as between one man and one woman only. Now, in the first place, Bill Clinton defending marriage is a little like Sen. Ted Kennedy teaching water rescue and CPR. In the second place, the president, congress and the courts can define legal civil unions, however, they have no authority to define the sanctity of marriage.

Civil union is a contract having to do with legal rights and obligations. The government has every right to legislate with regard to these unions. At the same time, in order to serve justice, truth, and freedom, government has a duty to extend the benefits of civil unions to all competent adults. The individual religious, spiritual or political beliefs of any segment of society must never be used as an excuse to deny equal opportunity, or equal civil rights to any competent adult, or classes of competent adults. This seems so obvious to me, that I feel a bit foolish even stating it here. The most important benefit of civil union is that of ownership and transfer of property. Civil union defines a family unit, for purposes of civil law. When we speak of civil marriage or civil union, we’re speaking only of a legal relationship, not a spiritual or religious one. It is wise to take religious principles and opinions into account when contemplating civil law, but it is reckless, unjust and unconstitutional to base civil law and the relationships of competent adults on religion.

Pope John Paul II recently released a message tot the civil leaders of the world, urging them not to extend legal recognition to same gender relationships. The Catholic Church teaches that such relationships are seriously disordered against natural law. This means that same gender relationships are, in and of themselves, evil. As it happens, I disagree with that teaching, as I have a great deal of love and respect for the Holy Father; he is the leader of an ancient religious tradition. (Don't get all crazy, Tony. I'm not Catholic, and I have a great deal of love and respect for you, both as a person and as a representative of a religious tradition.) However, I think he-and our president-need to be reminded of something Jesus once said. Jesus told a group o f religious leaders, who laid heavy, unjust burdens on their followers that if they misled the innocent, it would be better for them if heavy stones were tied around their necks, and they were sunk to the bottom of the sea. The Pope has every right, even obligation, to spread the teachings of the Church, using his spiritual authority, but he crosses a dangerous line when he attempts to have the teachings of his church encoded into civil law. This mentality has been a curse upon the Church almost since its inception. From what I’ve seen of the words of Jesus, I doubt he would approve of the merging of civil and ecclesiastical power. When the Pope urges civil authorities to deny equal rights to competent adults, based upon the teachings of his church, he leaves the realm of spirituality and casts himself as a power in the manner of this material world. He departs from the teachings of Jesus, who urged us to walk through this world, but not be of this world, who urged us to accumulate spiritual treasures, rather than corruptible material possessions, who urged us to extend mercy, not judgment. It is the Pope’s right to define marriage for the faithful of his church as the indissoluble union of a man and a woman for the purpose of procreation. I do not agree with that position-to me, for the record, neither the state, a priest or God marry you, you marry each other: marriage is a covenant. Neither, though, do I have a desire, or the state have a right, to outlaw it. I would never dream to tell the Pope his teachings are fundamentally disordered-though I might believe it.

In most western countries, there are two marriage ceremonies. A couple go before a civil magistrate, who is empowered by the state to confirm their civil, legal relationship. Next, the couple may go to a church, and repeat their vows in front of friends, family and a minister. The minister-of any sort-is empowered by the church to witness the religious marriage, and, in some instances, by the state to administer and witness the civil one, but the reality is that they are separate ceremonies. One of the results of the Enlightenment was the separation of civil and religious authority. Before 1700, there was no civil union; only the religious ceremony, and it had the force of law. The Catholic Church doesn’t recognize divorce, yet civil law has accommodated the reality of changing social values, through allowing divorce. Divorce is a civil law concept, having to do with ownership and transfer of property, as well as other legal obligations and rights.

The Pope, along with prominent Protestant and Jewish leaders, tell us that same gender unions would threaten the sanctity and stability of the family, but they don’t; tell us how that would happen. Couples already marry and divorce with abandon, and children are raised in broken or single-parent homes, or neglected and abused with both parents present. There is no magical formula for raising nurturing homes, save love, and you can’t legislate that. As a country, or government, and as a president, no one has any business attempting to stop people from creating supportive relationships.

Religious marriage is sacred, having deep, significant meaning for the adherents of each particular religion. It ought to be respected by all members of society, but not forced upon anyone. The ownership of property ought to be protected for all members of society, even those engaged in ways of living that religion disapproves of. For example, same gender couples ought to be able to enjoy the survivor benefits of Social Security, pensions and a host of other programs; they pay the same taxes as the rest of us, yet they are denied equal rights because of religious objections to the way they live-in America, in 2004! This is unjust, unconstitutional, and it must be changed. All attempts to prevent it-especially, as Mr. Bush has hinted at, a constitutional amendment-will be one step further away from the constitutional principle of freedom of religion, as well as freedom from religion, and one step closer to the sort of tyranny that I, for one, will continue to rant against until it is really and truly-and, I believe, inevitably-here.

edited to add one word.
 

Makalakumu

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andy said:
Homosexuals are free to love whomever they wish. Noone challenges that.
But when a homosexual promotes the agenda on a heterosexual or their children as 'normal'--therein lies the problem.

If any given species cannot procreate thru the act of sexual intercourse then an anomaly of nature has been introduced into the system. what do we do as a caring society with someone who has a physical or mental problem?--short answer we treat and help as best we can.

The political agenda is clear here.
Society does not need to change to an anomaly that creates grief and tragedy. society needs to help perhaps, but not adhere to an abnormality.
Homo Sapians have sex for reproduction, but they also have sex just to have sex. Masturbation is a good example of this. Sodomy in prison is another example of this. Our sex lives bind us together. Why should this part of human nature be looked down upon by anyone? There are many types of sexual behavior in which humans have always engaged. Homosexuality is but one of them.
 

Makalakumu

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Tgace said:
Yeah..adultry is a crime in NY too. We couldnt build enough jails. Perhaps I should say "nobody is going to be prosecuted for homosexuality in the USA".

BTW: Id have no problem with a civil union either. Its just a contract.
Maybe we should do away with marriage altogether in this country. Perhaps civil unions for everyone would be the most fair for everyone.
 

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Rich Parsons said:
Tom et al,

They (* Homosexuals *) can "Love" whom ever they want. But they cannot have sex, as they is considered wrong in many states, and or local laws.

Nobody is going to be prosecuted for consentual sex regardless of whats on the books. As I said adultry is on the books in NY. As is consensual sodomy (which outlaws anything but straight sex between unmarried people). I could just imagine the circus that would result if somebody was prosecuted for any of these.
 

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The paradox of the Pope. The Catholic Church states that it is against homosexuality, which it has every right to do. He may say he disagrees with countries passing civil union laws which is within his rights too. Now if citizens/lawmakers/politicians are practicing Catholics (which as far as I know isnt illegal yet) and agree with/follow the Popes opinion is the Pope really "meddeling in politics"?

The Constitution states that no law shall be passed regarding the "establishment" of religion not that religious belief shall have no influence on lawmaking. Article VI of the U.S. Constitution: "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." Which protects the the office holders right to believe what he wants as much as its designed to prevent the government from requiring some sort of religious belief.
 

Rich Parsons

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Tgace said:
The paradox of the Pope. The Catholic Church states that it is against homosexuality, which it has every right to do. He may say he disagrees with countries passing civil union laws which is within his rights too. Now if citizens/lawmakers/politicians are practicing Catholics (which as far as I know isnt illegal yet) and agree with/follow the Popes opinion is the Pope really "meddeling in politics"?

The Constitution states that no law shall be passed regarding the "establishment" of religion not that religious belief shall have no influence on lawmaking. Article VI of the U.S. Constitution: "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." Which protects the the office holders right to believe what he wants as much as its designed to prevent the government from requiring some sort of religious belief.

And the US Constitution also states that all Slaves and Indentured Servants will only count at 2/3's So at one time it was ok and exceptable to own slaves and indentured servants. Now it is not. Yet, as you say there are laws on the books that no one uses, or enforces, but there are laws in place to make sure that people can vote and the bill of rights does not make note of anyone being male or female or Black or White, or , ... . So, I just would like to see everyone have the same rights here in the USA. What the Pope preaches is fine, and as a religion people can support him, and follow his or the Churches' ways, and still apply logic and common sense.

I have stated it before, if you take your Morals (* no matter where they come from religion or elsewhere *) and you learn these from Family or Religion and such and you then apply these to make your personal Values. These Values allow you to decide what is important to you and what you would hope for in society, and then you argue, and discuss with people the Ethical points of an issue, based upon your Values, that are influenced from your Morals. Once Society (* the population at large decides somethin is ethical or unethical, then a determination of law can be made.

So, if Marriage is recognized by the State, (* Federal and State and Local Levels *), no matter if it be a religious marriage or a cival union by the State. With this Marriage people gain rights and priviledges and responsibilities to each other.

So, now we make it not legal for someone to get married. One has to ask why is not desired to allow a certain people to get married?

The first and most popular answer is that it is not allowed or right from their religion. So, from my point of view, this is the problem, they are applying their religious concepts to this issue, when it should be an ethical discussion, even though peoples morals and values will affect their ethical decision, but the great thing about humanity, and most religions is that they state they humans are greater than the animals, and they also have free will and or the capabilities to make a choice. They could choose to allow this to be accepted, and continue to practice their religion. for nothing has been done, to take away any of their rights. Yet, if you look at it from an ethical and logical point of view then one realizes that if you can discriminate against one group then you can discriminate against others, and eventually you might be on the discrimination side.

Just MHO.
 

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upnorthkyosa said:
Maybe we should do away with marriage altogether in this country. Perhaps civil unions for everyone would be the most fair for everyone.
Or maybe you should just accept the reasonable compromise of allowing civil unions for homosexuals and allow those with a religious bent to engage in church recognized "marriage".

I mean, according to your argument, this is really about contracts, wills, inheretance, medical and life insurance, right, not about ramming one lifestyle down someone else's throat, and forcing christians to fully accept a certain lifestyle...or is it? The law should recognize all civil unions equally....the church does not have nor should have any such responsibility.
 

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How could the government ever "force a Church" to do anything like that anyway?
 

Tgace

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The Constitution has an amendment that ended slavery Rich (13th amendment). That superceded the 2/3 vote issue. Article IV still stands. There are no "Blue Laws" in the Constitution or rules that are no longer enforced like there are in State Laws. Old rules are amended.

You cannot remove peoples beliefs from law making. People make laws so there will always be personal (and political) beliefs involved.
 
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There are ways to force issues, but most of them will violate the separation that is supposed to exist.

Tom, I will partially disagree with 1 point: "People make laws"
Politicians make laws. I wish the people had more say in their structure, review and passage. Same with taxes and "user fees". But thats mostly a tangent.

I both wonder and fear what would happen if they put a properly phrased law proposal before the nations people. Something like "Should the right of marriage be granted universally regardless of race, religion, gender or pairing to all humans?" Might be too plain english for our "leaders" though, and need to have a highway paving add-in added to make it acceptable to them first.
 

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Bob Hubbard said:
There are ways to force issues, but most of them will violate the separation that is supposed to exist.

Tom, I will partially disagree with 1 point: "People make laws"
Politicians make laws. I wish the people had more say in their structure, review and passage. Same with taxes and "user fees". But thats mostly a tangent.

I both wonder and fear what would happen if they put a properly phrased law proposal before the nations people. Something like "Should the right of marriage be granted universally regardless of race, religion, gender or pairing to all humans?" Might be too plain english for our "leaders" though, and need to have a highway paving add-in added to make it acceptable to them first.
We know what many people would do, Bob, as same-sex marriage laws have been on direct ballots in several states. If you want the right to same sex marriage, your best bet is to deal with the legislatures or the courts.

The voting public as a whole is far less progressive, accepting and accomidating. That's because people vote, many times, from the gut, not from a reasoned philosophical perspective on what laws might do, should do, and can do.

That's why we are a republic, not a direct democracy. Many leftists claim a desire toward a direct democracy, but in reality, it would go against them far more than it would go with them.

The needs and desires of the people need to be heard and enacted. The passing passions of the people need to be filtered through a body of statesman (whether they fail often at that role or not).

In a well run republic, the people review the work of these elder statesman periodically and decide to retain them or replace them. In a dictatorship we have someone else to blame. The fault, blame and ultimate credit for the success or failure of the republic rests firmly in the hands of the people themselves.
 

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Yeah, but politicians that dont work from their personal beliefs (which they platform to get elected in the first place) will probably sway with "popular opinion". If they believe that passing a "gay marriage" act wont get them re-elected......Beliefs, religious or otherwise will always be part of human activity.
 

sgtmac_46

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Tgace said:
Yeah, but politicians that dont work from their personal beliefs (which they platform to get elected in the first place) will probably sway with "popular opinion". If they believe that passing a "gay marriage" act wont get them re-elected......Beliefs, religious or otherwise will always be part of human activity.
This is true, however, if you put same-sex marriage on a direct ballot, then bombard the media with special interest messages on both sides, the majority of people will vote against same-sex marriage

1) Because they don't like to be told what to do and 2) Most people aren't gay, so they don't exactly feel motivated to vote FOR something that isn't going to positively benefit them.

same-sex marriage, as a hot button issue, is actually rather low on the list of the averageAmerican's priorities. Most American's are not diametrically opposed to the idea, they simply don't like the way it's presented and feel rather coerced about the whole thing.

Place the same ballot in a state legislator, however, and you'll find that legislators as a rule are somewhat more progressive than the average voter, and will back this kind of law IF the mood in the state is not so anti-same sex marriage as to make it a real issue.

A lot of unpopular laws are passed simply because nobody really cared enough to oppose, except for a few interest groups. Further, most of the legislatures aren't up for reelection for another 2 or 3 or 4 years anyway, and by then everyone will have forgotten about it. Hence, the best route for this law is through the legislatures.....OR

Federal judges are appointed for life, if you find a sympathetic one, he has no reason not to vote where his personal passions and sympathies lie. It's not as if anyone can second guess him, except a higher judge. And if the issue is on a Supreme Court level, they are the final arbiters. This route is probably the most advantageous for backers of extremely controversial, unpopular and political unsupportable issues. It's one many on the left want to leave open, and are most angry about with this administration.
 

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I am pleased to see that the conservatives that have weighed in on this thread seem to have come to the conclusion that issues like "gay marriage" truly are about civil rights and should be dealt with as such. The church should not have sway over what is actually a legal issue.

I would hope that people on both sides of the aisle would read this woman's letter for what it is- a cry for compassion and understanding. I hope that the day will come when people are truly judged on their meritt, and not their color, religion, orientation, etc.

I remember when a friend of mine from high-school "came out" to me. I was the first person he told, and I could see the fear and pain on his face with the prospect of rejection and, possibly, hatred. It is one of my fondest memories to see his relief when I not only accepted him for who and what he was, but extended him the offer to assist him in any way I could to cope with family and other friends. I passed no judgements, and that is all that he wanted.

When, later at college, I saw him become the target of harrassment, I saw him filled with such confidence that the threats and taunting didn't drive him to depression- like in high school. I can only assume that it was the simple acknowledgement from family and friends that he was still loved and accepted that helped give him the strength to rise above the bigotry that prevailed around him.

My hope is that conservatives take up the banner in the cause of simple civil rights for this group of Americans, and that liberals not only accept conservatives joining the cause, but do more than just give lip service to this issue. If we truly want to be a society governed by laws, not men, then this issue has some very clear cut conclusions.

Hatred, bigotry, and discrimination should be stamped out with regards to our civil rights and liberties. No matter who likes it or not.
 

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DngrRuss said:
I am pleased to see that the conservatives that have weighed in on this thread seem to have come to the conclusion that issues like "gay marriage" truly are about civil rights and should be dealt with as such. The church should not have sway over what is actually a legal issue.

I would hope that people on both sides of the aisle would read this woman's letter for what it is- a cry for compassion and understanding. I hope that the day will come when people are truly judged on their meritt, and not their color, religion, orientation, etc.

I remember when a friend of mine from high-school "came out" to me. I was the first person he told, and I could see the fear and pain on his face with the prospect of rejection and, possibly, hatred. It is one of my fondest memories to see his relief when I not only accepted him for who and what he was, but extended him the offer to assist him in any way I could to cope with family and other friends. I passed no judgements, and that is all that he wanted.

When, later at college, I saw him become the target of harrassment, I saw him filled with such confidence that the threats and taunting didn't drive him to depression- like in high school. I can only assume that it was the simple acknowledgement from family and friends that he was still loved and accepted that helped give him the strength to rise above the bigotry that prevailed around him.

My hope is that conservatives take up the banner in the cause of simple civil rights for this group of Americans, and that liberals not only accept conservatives joining the cause, but do more than just give lip service to this issue. If we truly want to be a society governed by laws, not men, then this issue has some very clear cut conclusions.

Hatred, bigotry, and discrimination should be stamped out with regards to our civil rights and liberties. No matter who likes it or not.
On this issue we are in agreement as far as the rule of law. Everyone deserves equal protection, and acts of discrimination should not be tolerated.

On the issue of the church, I have only this to say. What a church decides to allow or tolerate within it's congregation and within it's faith is it's own business. If they do not allow same-sex marriage rituals, or allow homosexuals ministers, etc, I DO NOT wish to see the Federal government seek to force the issue on them. It is the right of every citizen to take religion or leave it. We are not forced to participate in any organized religion, and that's the way it should be. The seperation of church and state goes BOTH ways, meaning government has no business regulating churches.

We cannot outlaw or legislate hatred and bigotry. We can outlaw acts committed toward others and make sure that everyone is granted equal rights and protection under the law.
 

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sgtmac_46 said:
On this issue we are in agreement as far as the rule of law. Everyone deserves equal protection, and acts of discrimination should not be tolerated.

On the issue of the church, I have only this to say. What a church decides to allow or tolerate within it's congregation and within it's faith is it's own business. If they do not allow same-sex marriage rituals, or allow homosexuals ministers, etc, I DO NOT wish to see the Federal government seek to force the issue on them. It is the right of every citizen to take religion or leave it. We are not forced to participate in any organized religion, and that's the way it should be. The seperation of church and state goes BOTH ways, meaning government has no business regulating churches.

We cannot outlaw or legislate hatred and bigotry. We can outlaw acts committed toward others and make sure that everyone is granted equal rights and protection under the law.
Say it ain't so Sgt... we actually agree on more than one point? This must be my lucky day.

A couple more posts like the above one and you will be asked to turn in your conservative membership card. But, it's ok. We of the left-leaning-independant crowd won't hold your past agianst you. You are more than welcome to hang with us- though we may ask the Queer Eye guys to give you a makeover just so your better dressed for the party in Hell after the Falwellian Right has us all executed.

Dang- took a serious post and made it all goofy-
 

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DngrRuss said:
Say it ain't so Sgt... we actually agree on more than one point? This must be my lucky day.

A couple more posts like the above one and you will be asked to turn in your conservative membership card. But, it's ok. We of the left-leaning-independant crowd won't hold your past agianst you. You are more than welcome to hang with us- though we may ask the Queer Eye guys to give you a makeover just so your better dressed for the party in Hell after the Falwellian Right has us all executed.

Dang- took a serious post and made it all goofy-
Contrary to popular opinion, most of my views fall in the Libertarian category. Gun control, same-sex marriage, abortion, taxes, etc. I lean right, but not conservative per se. I vote Republican because they are most in line with my issues, but I certainly don't fall lock-step behind their entire platform.

As for the Queer Eye guys, I really don't care to hang around gay guys much. It's not that they aren't decent folks, I know several, and they are caring, likeable people. I just find gay guys annoying. It's like all of the baggage of women, with none of the charm. All my homosexual friends are lesbians. We go out and shoot together, do martial arts, and have a good time. They're like hanging around with a guy, but more attractive (sometimes).
 

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My 2 cents:

Legal marriage is a contract, period. And not even a very good contract, in my opinion. Most people enter into this contract without having a clue as to what they just agreed to, and they only discover the provisions when they try to dissolve the contract, surprise, surprise. They wouldn't buy a car without reading the fine print, but marriage? Sure, where do I sign?

So I don't see any reason why two individuals of any gender shouldn't be allowed to sign that contract, if they want to. The only people who really benefit are the divorce lawyers, who are, by the way, drooling over the prospect of gay marriage.

Religious or spiritual marriage is a completely different thing. If you feel you need to have the blessing of God, the Creator, the Goddess, or whomever, by all means, go ahead. And I agree that you are then bound by the tenets of your particular religion or spiritual belief. But I fail to see what that has to do with the legal marriage contract.

It's true that you can make a variety of legal contracts regarding ownership, health care, inheritance, etc, but the one provision you cannot provide for is Social Security benefits. That, in my opinion is unfair, and should be addressed. You should be able to assign your benefits to any individual you deem appropriate. And health insurance, IMO, should not depend on whom you marry...it should be universal.
 

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