A fist is more powerful than a impact weapon strike. What is going on?

[jaime_lion]

So I saw this video and the guy was able to produce more force with a back-fist that with two types of sticks. A beefy Chinese flute and an Indian weighted club.

Does anyone know why this is?

Here is the video.

 

[geezer]

Yeah. He covered it pretty well in his discussion. The only thing is he didn't show the initial empty hand strike he was using as a base of comparison. I'd like to see that as well.

 

[jaime_lion]

Yeah. He covered it pretty well in his discussion. The only thing is he didn't show the initial empty hand strike he was using as a base of comparison. I'd like to see that as well.

Here is the video showing his backhand strike. He had this video linked in the description.

So do you agree with his conclusion that a fist can hit harder than a stick?

 

[Buka]

I’m not going to get my thirty minutes back, am I?

 

[jobo]

Here is the video showing his backhand strike. He had this video linked in the description.

So do you agree with his conclusion that a fist can hit harder than a stick?

well it can hit harder than a stick, it depends how hard you hit with the stick try hitting a base ball with a bat and then with your fist and see which provides the most force. I'm puting a $ the bat wins

 

[jaime_lion]

well it can hit harder than a stick, it depends how hard you hit with the stick try hitting a base ball with a bat and then with your fist and see which provides the most force. I'm puting a $ the bat wins

So can you explain what you are saying with your baseball analogy?

 

[jobo]

So can you explain what you are saying with your baseball analogy?

I'm saying stick are better, or rather sticks are irrelevant,for, any like for like movemen, increasing the mass and the lever arm, will as long as you don't increase them to much to a point that you cant accelerate them adequately, increase the kenitic energy of your arm and therefore the force experienced by the object.

ie there's an optimum size and weight for a baseball ball, just as there is an optimum size and weight for a club, to long or to heavy and the kinetic energy is reduced, comparing movements that are not the same, is completely point less as to the benefits or otherwise of a force multiplyer, he is clearly putting more effort and swing in to his fist strike than his club strike, its almost like he wanted to prove his fist was more forceful, unconscious bias or otherwise

 

[Deleted member 39746]

density and mass of the objects and speed you can propel them. I personally wouldn't want to back fist someones skull as i think it presents the weakest part of your hand to the strongest part of the head.

And above, pending what material the weapon is made out of, plenty produce more force than a fist and can easily shatter and break bone.

also hit harder isn't all there is to this discussion, where you can hit and risk to your own body is as well. If you break your fist i believe its really hard to get it to go back to normal (pending break) if you break a stick you just get another stick. And you can hit more with a weapon as it doesn't literally damage your body as much. unless you mess up your wrist or hand tendons you should be able to fight for longer than beating people with your fists.

Anyway, bottom line, material matters, speed which you can propel matters and you cant generally just get a new part of your own body. and where you hit matters more with your fist than with a stick.


I quote someone doing TKD wood breaking "i can break boards x thickness your thickest bone is less thick" completely ignoring density matters more than thickness and bone is probably more dense than the wood they use or they should all have broken fists.

edit: But a blade is better than a stick, not going to dispute that, a blade has better killing potential than a stick. just in case it comes up, and a blades ability is about cutting and putting holes in people not about breaking bones.

 

[pdg]

I haven't watched the video, because the comments remind me of that "which kick is more powerful" video where they fudged the results to get the answer they wanted.

Depends how you measure which force as to which item will end up delivering more "power".

And there's usefulness to consider too.

Expanding on what @jobo said - I'd use a type of club to put a fence post in (sledgehammer). I'd use a type of club to put a nail in (hammer). I'd use a sharp club to chop a log...

If a fist could produce more absolute power than a club, why were so many types of club invented?

 

[Danny T]

Damn...
Should have paid attention to those who viewed before I did...I'm with Buka.

 

[jaime_lion]

I haven't watched the video, because the comments remind me of that "which kick is more powerful" video where they fudged the results to get the answer they wanted.

Depends how you measure which force as to which item will end up delivering more "power".

And there's usefulness to consider too.

Expanding on what @jobo said - I'd use a type of club to put a fence post in (sledgehammer). I'd use a type of club to put a nail in (hammer). I'd use a sharp club to chop a log...

If a fist could produce more absolute power than a club, why were so many types of club invented?

Those are not clubs per-say but mace's. A club would be less powerful than a mace.

Also a fist will feel pain even if you punch tree's. A club or weapon does not.

 

[jobo]

I haven't watched the video, because the comments remind me of that "which kick is more powerful" video where they fudged the results to get the answer they wanted.

Depends how you measure which force as to which item will end up delivering more "power".

And there's usefulness to consider too.

Expanding on what @jobo said - I'd use a type of club to put a fence post in (sledgehammer). I'd use a type of club to put a nail in (hammer). I'd use a sharp club to chop a log...

If a fist could produce more absolute power than a club, why were so many types of club invented?

yes indeed, if that guy was to challenge me, his best punch against my best swing with on of those clubs, then id best him easy, I'm quite adapted at hitting things with a club, if he was to be more prescriptive and insist it was a back swing, then its a completely new movement pattern for me, I just don't knock walls down that way, and id need half an hour practice the movement pattern then id beat him easy

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Oh yeah, i didnt watch the video, thought that would be worth noting, i may or may not watch them but as i am not specifically responding on the basis of which generates more force it doesn't seem that important.

If a fist could produce more absolute power than a club, why were so many types of club invented?

As far as i recall if you take two materials exact same toughness and density and thickness, both arent going to break. In reality one probably has some innate defect in it, so the one with the defect in it probably is going to give and break. If we then take a club made of a material that can break bone, it then reduces the chance of breaking your own body breaking someone else's body and then also increases the chance of you breaking their body with it. Plus you can replace said club if it breaks you cant your hand if it stops working, you arnet getting that back once it breaks.

Economy/logic of fighting seems more important than on paper how much force something produces. Same with material science, not all material is equal and design of material helps. Like lead can float if you shape it right. Small surface area makes cutting and puncturing easier etc.

I may have forgot what force means, more than likely. anyway not really arguing, more just expanding why so many clubs and weapons exist, more due to logic/economy of fighting to kill people. And everyone is made of the same materials. And such like that.

Also a fist will feel pain even if you punch tree's. A club or weapon does not.

I think the main point was, thats a factor in why weapons are superior and if fists were in anyway superior than weapons in killing why would so many weapons exist in history and be used as extensively. the only things your hands have is, they are with you 24/7 and quite dextirious.

 

[jobo]

Those are not clubs per-say but mace's. A club would be less powerful than a mace.

Also a fist will feel pain even if you punch tree's. A club or weapon does not.

a mace is just a refined club, it may well be better than some clubs, but not as good as others dependent on how you use it, my club weapon of choice in a fight to the death even against a knife a, would be a 14 oz claw hammer, it's the perfect weight and length to allow fast movement and to give devastating blows, as that is exactly what it was designed for

 

[pdg]

The other thing with these numbers games...

Using my fist I'm quite sure I can get more "force" than say a 10" long steel pipe.

But area over which the force is applied.

The "higher force" backfist to your head, might get a knockout and/or concussion.

The lower force (but much more concentrated and harder) steel pipe - say hello to a depressed skull fracture. That's going to ruin your day.


So, whether you can produce a higher measured force with one item vs another item is pretty much irrelevant. It's only one (relatively small) variable in the list.

 

[jobo]

The other thing with these numbers games...

Using my fist I'm quite sure I can get more "force" than say a 10" long steel pipe.

But area over which the force is applied.

The "higher force" backfist to your head, might get a knockout and/or concussion.

The lower force (but much more concentrated and harder) steel pipe - say hello to a depressed skull fracture. That's going to ruin your day.


So, whether you can produce a higher measured force with one item vs another item is pretty much irrelevant. It's only one (relatively small) variable in the list.

The other numbers issue here, is he is claiming 5500 Newton of force for his strike, that well over a 1000 lbs of force, thats in the same class as an elite heavy weight boxer can generate, which makes me doubt the accuracy of his set up some what

 

[Buka]

The gentleman in the video is trying to set up people's opinion so they may reach a conclusion that he wants them to reach.

He does so in framing different questions, referring to the weight of the objects in grams, in the different angles in which he videos his body - which is almost completely out of frame in the weapon swings so you won't notice he is purposely hitting softly, in applying his malarkey to his hypothesis, and in the assumption that if he bores you to death you won't notice what complete and utter BS he is spewing.

If you're further bored today, and don't mind spending more time with Brother Love's Travelling Salvation Show, go to his backfist video and freeze frame it on the wind up. On the set-up for the strike, his back is nearly completely turned to the target so he can generate power. Not only is that NOT what we all here think of when we hear the word "backfist", it's just plain dishonest. But it's conveniently located on a second video separate from the club strike one so I guess he thinks it won't be noticed.

I could go on, I really could, but I won't. My only real question is why he is doing this?

 

[pdg]

Cheers @Buka - saved me watching it

I did skip through the first vid, the 7 or 8 times I randomly chose all I saw was a guy at a table talking to the camera... I'm in no way bored enough to actually watch it, I have ironing to do.

 

[JP3]

density and mass of the objects and speed you can propel them. I personally wouldn't want to back fist someones skull as i think it presents the weakest part of your hand to the strongest part of the head.

And above, pending what material the weapon is made out of, plenty produce more force than a fist and can easily shatter and break bone.

also hit harder isn't all there is to this discussion, where you can hit and risk to your own body is as well. If you break your fist i believe its really hard to get it to go back to normal (pending break) if you break a stick you just get another stick. And you can hit more with a weapon as it doesn't literally damage your body as much. unless you mess up your wrist or hand tendons you should be able to fight for longer than beating people with your fists.

Anyway, bottom line, material matters, speed which you can propel matters and you cant generally just get a new part of your own body. and where you hit matters more with your fist than with a stick.


I quote someone doing TKD wood breaking "i can break boards x thickness your thickest bone is less thick" completely ignoring density matters more than thickness and bone is probably more dense than the wood they use or they should all have broken fists.

edit: But a blade is better than a stick, not going to dispute that, a blade has better killing potential than a stick. just in case it comes up, and a blades ability is about cutting and putting holes in people not about breaking bones.

I had an instructor say to me one time, "I try to hit hard things with soft things, and vice versa." Meaning, he would strike the bony surfaces of the head with open-hand strikes, palm heels etc, forearms, like that. He would punch with fist to the neck, belly, sides and back, like that. It makes a sort of sense when you think about it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I’m not going to get my thirty minutes back, am I?

But you did save me 30 minutes. I appreciate that.