A disturbing conversation...

[bcbernam777]

I had a conversation with an MA supplier 2 days ago, when I quizzed him on Marketing strategy involved in setting up an MA school. Without going in to great detail, the essence of what he was saying is that to make a success of any MA school, you essentially have to become a Mcdojo/belt factory and that by and large people want to live in a fantasy and dont want to put the hard yards in to actually obtain true fighting skill. When I suggested that I did not want to water down the art to make it marketable, he basically said to me, "then you are going to have look at it as a hobby, teach a few people because that is as far as it is going to get".

Does everyone out there think that is true???????????????

 

[MJS]

I'd have to say that I disagree with the person you spoke to. I personally know of 5 schools in CT. that are far from belt factories. Whats sad, is that there are people out there like this guy, who feed those words to school owners, making them feel that that is the only way to survive. Its a shame that nobody wants to work hard and actually earn something.

Mike

 

[The Kai]

Just as there are students that don't want to put in the sweat to earn thier chops, there are school owners that take the easy road also

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Personally, I don't believe that's universally true; however, it has some truth to it.

The general public is composed of consumers. In order to enter into the market (with the goal of profit) you have to be able to provide the consumer with a product he wants; in this case, the McDojo. Giving the consumer what he wants as quickly as you can in order to obtain profit is the essence of the mass-consumption market.

On the other hand, serving the niche market, that small part of the market that wants a unique product with considerably less-than-mass appeal, such as a legitimate martial art is a longer, slower road to profit. I mean, the goal in business is to make a profit, right? The questions are: how fast do you want that profit and what will you do to obtain the profit?

It seems to me, the supplier you spoke to described the short, fast road to money. Suppliers are like that; they want a profit, too.

respectfully,

egg

 

[Gemini]

Though I wouldn't say it's always true, I would say that it is true more often than not. The school that stays true to its teachings has a generally harder time being successful, though in cases it is possible. Remember, as unfortunate as it may sound, the success of a school is based on offering what people are willing to pay for. People buy what they want. If a school opens up that is teaching an art that the people in that neighborhood want, it can be successful.

A successful selling strategy is offering what people are willing to pay for, not what you want them to have. In other words, people are not going to pay for something just because it's what YOU want.

"But I teach a REAL art. Not some watered down belt factory".

Unfortunately, most people don't even know the difference until it's too late.

There are of course other factors involved, but this has quite a bit to do with it.

Before you become disheartened, remember many of us here, including myself, belong to successful schools that are not McDojo's. But the threat that they bring is never far off either.

Best of luck to you!

 

[bcbernam777]

I understand that it is human nature to take the easy road, but I really dont want to take that road, to do that would be to rob them and decieve them by thinking they can fight when they cant, I guess I am going to have to keep my day job and pray for for some measure of success. Any suggestions for how I could reach people who would keep it real??

 

[MJS]

I understand that it is human nature to take the easy road, but I really dont want to take that road, to do that would be to rob them and decieve them by thinking they can fight when they cant, I guess I am going to have to keep my day job and pray for for some measure of success. Any suggestions for how I could reach people who would keep it real??

Making sure that people understand what the art is about, what you are about, and what your school is about would be good ways to start. Many people have a very distorted view on what the arts are about. Its not hard to figure out what people want. Spending a few minutes talking to them and its amazing as to what you'll learn.

Mike

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Any suggestions for how I could reach people who would keep it real??

This may sound harsh; but, take 'em all. Tell them the hard truth about your training up front. Separate the wheat from the chaff through your training. The dedicated will stay. The slackers will fade. It takes time; but, you could develop a decent core class that way.

 

[Gemini]

I understand that it is human nature to take the easy road, but I really dont want to take that road, to do that would be to rob them and decieve them by thinking they can fight when they cant, I guess I am going to have to keep my day job and pray for for some measure of success. Any suggestions for how I could reach people who would keep it real??

That's a very realistic approach. As long as you don't over extend your ability to provide the art (i.e. massive overhead hoping to get enough students to pay for it) and keep your ability to teach in line with your means to provide it, you should be fine. So yes, maybe to start at least, you'll need to keep another source of income.

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

I think it should be watered down atad for beginners, but once you're pass beginner status, it's full steam ahead. When people first come in a dojo, you'd pry scare them away with too much hard work at once. But once they try it for awhile and love it, then they are more willing to do more work and be more motivated. Watering it down for upper belts though, is a no-no in my book.

 

[MJS]

I think it should be watered down atad for beginners, but once you're pass beginner status, it's full steam ahead. When people first come in a dojo, you'd pry scare them away with too much hard work at once. But once they try it for awhile and love it, then they are more willing to do more work and be more motivated. Watering it down for upper belts though, is a no-no in my book.

Sorry, I have to disagree here. Why water it down at all?? If people get that 'watered down taste' don't you think that they'll wonder why the sudden change later on??

If people are serious about their training, they won't want anything watered down.

Mike

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Mark,

I teach the arts the way they were taught to me, not watered
down! I will also not compromise in the value and moral department!
My Training Hall and students are successful because of this!
I would advise you to stick to the way you want to teach and you
will not be disapointed! Good luck!

Brian R. VanCise

 

[Gemini]

Sorry, I have to disagree here. Why water it down at all?? If people get that 'watered down taste' don't you think that they'll wonder why the sudden change later on??

If people are serious about their training, they won't want anything watered down.

Mike

I couldn't agree more. I thought this way at one time and what a mistake that turned out to be. Once you start them this way, they end up quitting before turning. Just my own exprience has taught me this. Great in concept. Disasterous in reality.

 

[Makalakumu]

I run a small dojang in Superior, WI. Training at my school is traditional in the sense that it reflects what I was taught. My goal in starting this school was not to make money or to earn prestige. I wanted to create a quality environment where quality martial arts was the norm and not the exception. For me, the following formula helped accomplish this...

1. No Advertising - I don't want just anyone walking through my door. I would rather my students talk about our school with people so they can explain what it like in real-time conversation.
2. Closed Doors - All sessions are closed door, meaning that I don't want people to walk in off the street and jump right in. One reason I do this is because my school is in a bad neighborhood and I don't want to deal with any of the vagrants that inhabit the area. The other is that it forces the prospective student to talk to me...and then I can lay out my expectations in advance.
3. Real Tests - all gradings are free and students can expect them to be grueling challenges. People who earn rank from me will EARN that rank. Tests in my dojang run at least two hours for the lower ranks. Four for upper. The tests are an example of my high expectations.
4. Time requirments - It will take five years minimum to earn chodan in my dojang. No exceptions. The time requirement is important to me because it forces a student to get some experience in the art under their belt.
5. Probationary status - I have one class hour specifically dedicated for new students. Students in this class are expected to learn the basics and to learn the difference between karate and jumping/flipping. Students are not expected to put money down for the until the end of the month and they are not expected to buy a uniform. I want my students to self select for internal motivation.
6. No contracts - I do not believe that someone should be forced to practice MA if they do not wish too.
7. Controlled pain. A visit to my class will probably earn a student some bruises and you will be tapping a lot. All sparring is contact based.

This works for me and I would never say that everyone should do what I do. There is never only one way. However, I believe that I am able to resist becoming a Mcdojo because of these policies.

upnorthkyosa

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

Sorry, I have to disagree here. Why water it down at all?? If people get that 'watered down taste' don't you think that they'll wonder why the sudden change later on??

If people are serious about their training, they won't want anything watered down.

Mike

It's not a Sudden change.... It is gradual. Some guy off the street just jumping into full contact sparring or all out brutality isn't a wonderful idea. At first, not alot of people ARE serious about their training. I'm not saying water it down to skim milk, but don't give them the whole milk until they are ready for it. I'm not saying water it completely down, but personally I wouldn't want to be someone off the street being thrown into sparring with a black belt my first night. You are already scared enough when you are a newbie in MA and you go into a dojo. A gradual taking out of the easyness was what my instuctor did. So, about 6 months into martial arts, I was fighting black belts while I was a yellow belt. I wasn't comfortable, ofc, but by taking me out of my comfort zone after I loved the art too much to leave it, he took me out of the "slightly watered down" and threw me into the chocolate whole milk

(btw, upnorth, I like your idea of an extra class for beginners. Gets them to feel more comfortable. My instructors school sounds like yours with the exception of the beginners class)

 

[Epson]

Sounds like Urban Public schools. Most students just want to pass (belt factory)
the one's that do want the knowledge, they will get it even if they have break a moutain.
So just give the students easy belts, it's business.
However establish a few after practice classes. Those are not for the belt, those for hard training. The "belt costumers" will never go or last through those. And you are covered both ways.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

I think there's a significant difference between easing a new student in and 'watering down' the art. On the other hand, when I began TKD, I was on the floor half a dozen times the first day. It is fighting, after all.

 

[MJS]

It's not a Sudden change.... It is gradual. Some guy off the street just jumping into full contact sparring or all out brutality isn't a wonderful idea. At first, not alot of people ARE serious about their training. I'm not saying water it down to skim milk, but don't give them the whole milk until they are ready for it. I'm not saying water it completely down, but personally I wouldn't want to be someone off the street being thrown into sparring with a black belt my first night. You are already scared enough when you are a newbie in MA and you go into a dojo. A gradual taking out of the easyness was what my instuctor did. So, about 6 months into martial arts, I was fighting black belts while I was a yellow belt. I wasn't comfortable, ofc, but by taking me out of my comfort zone after I loved the art too much to leave it, he took me out of the "slightly watered down" and threw me into the chocolate whole milk

(btw, upnorth, I like your idea of an extra class for beginners. Gets them to feel more comfortable. My instructors school sounds like yours with the exception of the beginners class)

I agree with Onlyanegg. There is a big difference between gradual and watering down. The example you gave, throwing the student into full contact sparring is of course something on a gradual progression. Having the Mcdojo mentality is watering down. I find this interesting:

At first, not alot of people ARE serious about their training.

A dojo is a place to learn, not fool around. Many parents enroll 5 yos. Is a 5yo serious? Most likely not, however, correcting improper behavior ASAP will start to make them serious. Would you say the same about someone who has a desire to be a pro football, baseball or basketball player? What about someone who wants to enlist in the military? People who do not take that training serious have it known to them from day one!

Mike

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I had a conversation with an MA supplier 2 days ago, when I quizzed him on Marketing strategy involved in setting up an MA school. Without going in to great detail, the essence of what he was saying is that to make a success of any MA school, you essentially have to become a Mcdojo/belt factory and that by and large people want to live in a fantasy and dont want to put the hard yards in to actually obtain true fighting skill. When I suggested that I did not want to water down the art to make it marketable, he basically said to me, "then you are going to have look at it as a hobby, teach a few people because that is as far as it is going to get".

Does everyone out there think that is true???????????????

No.

What, exactly, is a McDojo? People have a difficult time coming to a consensus on this. I saw one criteria being the school's location in a strip mall...which is a great location but doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on the school.

The definitions of "McDojo" vary...and some of the people casting the allegations around are people who have failed to make a commercial venture successful (or who fear they'll fail).

The term "McDojo" suggests a franchise like McDonalds. The word makes one think of ingesting an unhealthy product. The analogy fails, however, as many martial arts franchises are extraordinarily expensive. A Big Mac is not going to strain a person's budget. That said, some perfectly good martial arts schools are expensive--training at the Inosanto Academy is not cheap. We might liken these schools to four star restaurants if we extend the analogy that far (and I don't think Inosanto would be adverse to strip mall locations).

Currently one of my franchised competitiors charges $100 a month for two one-half hour lessons a week. Younger children have classes of twenty minutes for the same price. Up to green belt no forms are taught without first paying an extra fee.

After green belt (actually a "camo" belt) the rates go to $200 a month, and they're allowed five classes a week...BUT have to sign a three year contract, purchase fighting equipment, purchase weapons, extra patches. I know of another school that requires a different uniform for different days of the week. Patches are required for all uniforms, and patches are awarded to the students at every turn and are very loosely based on merit. I don't think there is anything wrong with patches, note...unless it generates a ridiculous amount of revenue and significantly lightens the wallet of the parents.

Some schools take students through stripe belts. A number of variations of these are offered through wholesalers. While there is nothing wrong with stripe belts, charging a test fee for every one of them can rack up huge amounts of revenue. Students might test every eight weeks in some schools, going through stripes, tips, tape or what have you. Some students will go through thirty or so tests...and pay thirty test fees.

I use the stripe belts. I find they're useful in keeping students motivated to train. It takes four to seven years for a kid to get to black belt in my school...without those stripes they get frustrated and quit. Note that I don't charge for stripes...and they have to take a comprehensive test to earn them.

There is nothing wrong with students having a rich fantasy about the martial arts...particularly children. Adults need to be gently disabused of their illusions, but we can indulge the kids a bit. At some point we have to teach kids that one can't kick seven people while airborne, that lying on a bed of nails while blocks are shattered on your stomach isn't really a big deal, and that there are tricks to certain board/brick breaks that make it look harder than it really is.

Taking undue profit from their illusions is unethical.


Regards,


Steve

 

[arnisador]

Without going in to great detail, the essence of what he was saying is that to make a success of any MA school, you essentially have to become a Mcdojo/belt factory and that by and large people want to live in a fantasy and dont want to put the hard yards in to actually obtain true fighting skill. When I suggested that I did not want to water down the art to make it marketable, he basically said to me, "then you are going to have look at it as a hobby, teach a few people because that is as far as it is going to get".

To make a full-time living at it you usually have to teach kids and give them frequent rewards (belts and stripes). You hav eto tell their parents that it's helping them in school, too.

In a big city you'll find enough people who want to be hard-core that you may be able to do it your way...but for every one school of 30 students, mostly adults, working up a good sweat and leaving sore and tired, you'll find at least ten schools with 250 students doing, for all practical purposes, Tae Bo (under whatever name).

So, to make a living at it--pay the rent, utilities, salaries, advertising costs, insurance, etc.--I'd say that while "fantasy" is a harsh way to describe it, it's true that people aren't looking for something to truly prepare them for combat but for light exercise and a fun hobby.

Is this so bad? We have people who do poorly in school do, but we don't close them down. There's always a bell curve. I'm not too worried by this. There are always people--like most of us--who take it very seriously. But for every Tiger Woods or Michelle Wie there are hundreds of weekend golfers who don't care enough to work hard at improving their game but prefer instead to wander around the course having fun. Lots of people play tennis without putting in a great effort to take their game to the next level. Is it so different?