5 reasons TaeKwonDo as a system (not individual techniques) breaks down in a Muay Thai ring

[RTKDCMB]

Anyone who claims otherwise and think they're fine based on forms has not sparred high level kickboxers

You are assuming the training for defense is based solely on forms.

 

[drop bear]

Doesn't mean I can't / don't apply my home system.

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Does it mean you dont really understand your home system though?

 

[Gnarlie]

Or it can be a terrible system.

Yes. But in this case, it isn't.

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[drop bear]

Yes. But in this case, it isn't.

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Wait what do you mean in this case?

Rule 1. The system is never at fault.

Rule 2. If the system is at fault refer to rule 1.

 

[DaveB]

They are not facts. And if a system has no function they would be interchangeable and have equal results.

A system that teaches you to swim would be equal to a system that teaches you to ride a horse depending on how you train it.

If I said pink swimming clothes provide the same benefit as pink horse riding clothes. So the color pink has no function. That would be what you are trying to argue here.

A punch taught badly is a bad punch. Even if that bad punch is trained diligently it is still a bad punch.

Please stop the spurious analogies they only cloud your understanding of the argument further. Like I said about the exagerations, if the subject matter were that ridiculous you wouldn't need the exaggeration. The same is true here.

We are talking about different ways of doing the same thing. Discussing two different activities cannot in any way relate.

Yes there are more and less efficient mechanics, but most arts use similar if not identical methods, and secondly I honestly don't believe it makes enough difference to be relevant.

If you train your bad punch to be fast, develop good physical strength and learn how to land the blow it will do damage. Few ring fights are won with only one punch and the toughness of the opponent is just as relevant as the strength of the punch.

Plus when you consider that TMA are not intended for gloved fighting, less powerful punches actually make a lot of sense. Boxers are in constant danger of breaking the small bones in their hands so bare knuckle bone on bone fighting almost necessitates lower impact striking.

But I digress.

If you consider that different MA's are trying to get to the same place then a more apt comparison is swimming: back stroke vs breast stroke vs butterfly. A power comparison is like comparing the methods for racing, but a fight is just about reaching a destination. Breast stroke may be slower, but it still gets you there.

In this thread we're discussing Taekwondo. There's no functional difference in punching mechanics that I know of between muay Thai and tkd (by all means correct me if I'm wrong). Tkd employs a different defensive philosophy ie arm blocks as well as covers and evasion. Add some technique differences in kicking, a strike or kick here and there and the clinch style and all you have left to distinguish the two arts in terms of martial systems are preferential use of techniques and strategies. Nothing concrete because both have scope to be used in different ways; ways that mimick the other.

So what exactly is it intrinsic to this art and not justva function of training and objective that makes one superior to the other?

 

[Axiom]

You are assuming the training for defense is based solely on forms.

¨
No. I know that forms are only intended for the beginner and intermediate students. When at an advanced level, the practitioner moves freely. That does not however negate the fact that high quality boxing defence is lacking in TKD.

 

[Gnarlie]

Does it mean you dont really understand your home system though?

No.

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[Gnarlie]

Wait what do you mean in this case?

Rule 1. The system is never at fault.

Rule 2. If the system is at fault refer to rule 1.

In the case of Taekwondo as a system. The system is fine; the practitioner is lacking. You might want to not put words in my mouth.

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[drop bear]

Please stop the spurious analogies they only cloud your understanding of the argument further. Like I said about the exagerations, if the subject matter were that ridiculous you wouldn't need the exaggeration. The same is true here.

We are talking about different ways of doing the same thing. Discussing two different activities cannot in any way relate.

Yes there are more and less efficient mechanics, but most arts use similar if not identical methods, and secondly I honestly don't believe it makes enough difference to be relevant.

If you train your bad punch to be fast, develop good physical strength and learn how to land the blow it will do damage. Few ring fights are won with only one punch and the toughness of the opponent is just as relevant as the strength of the punch.

Plus when you consider that TMA are not intended for gloved fighting, less powerful punches actually make a lot of sense. Boxers are in constant danger of breaking the small bones in their hands so bare knuckle bone on bone fighting almost necessitates lower impact striking.

But I digress.

If you consider that different MA's are trying to get to the same place then a more apt comparison is swimming: back stroke vs breast stroke vs butterfly. A power comparison is like comparing the methods for racing, but a fight is just about reaching a destination. Breast stroke may be slower, but it still gets you there.

In this thread we're discussing Taekwondo. There's no functional difference in punching mechanics that I know of between muay Thai and tkd (by all means correct me if I'm wrong). Tkd employs a different defensive philosophy ie arm blocks as well as covers and evasion. Add some technique differences in kicking, a strike or kick here and there and the clinch style and all you have left to distinguish the two arts in terms of martial systems are preferential use of techniques and strategies. Nothing concrete because both have scope to be used in different ways; ways that mimick the other.

So what exactly is it intrinsic to this art and not justva function of training and objective that makes one superior to the other?

I dont understand how you dont get such a simple principle.

If you train a dumb method. And this is any dumb method for any task you are far less likely to achieve that task than if you train a sensible method.

Breast stroke is for example a dumb method for swimming. If you were in a race and you did breast stroke you are probably going to loose that race. If you have fallen out of your boat and decided to breast stroke home you will probably die.

The idea that somone does breast strok and is slower and crapper than everybody else is not the fault of the training or the individual. It is because he is doing breast stroke.

Not all systems are created equal.

 

[drop bear]

Please stop the spurious analogies they only cloud your understanding of the argument further. Like I said about the exagerations, if the subject matter were that ridiculous you wouldn't need the exaggeration. The same is true here.

We are talking about different ways of doing the same thing. Discussing two different activities cannot in any way relate.

Yes there are more and less efficient mechanics, but most arts use similar if not identical methods, and secondly I honestly don't believe it makes enough difference to be relevant.

If you train your bad punch to be fast, develop good physical strength and learn how to land the blow it will do damage. Few ring fights are won with only one punch and the toughness of the opponent is just as relevant as the strength of the punch.

Plus when you consider that TMA are not intended for gloved fighting, less powerful punches actually make a lot of sense. Boxers are in constant danger of breaking the small bones in their hands so bare knuckle bone on bone fighting almost necessitates lower impact striking.

But I digress.

If you consider that different MA's are trying to get to the same place then a more apt comparison is swimming: back stroke vs breast stroke vs butterfly. A power comparison is like comparing the methods for racing, but a fight is just about reaching a destination. Breast stroke may be slower, but it still gets you there.

In this thread we're discussing Taekwondo. There's no functional difference in punching mechanics that I know of between muay Thai and tkd (by all means correct me if I'm wrong). Tkd employs a different defensive philosophy ie arm blocks as well as covers and evasion. Add some technique differences in kicking, a strike or kick here and there and the clinch style and all you have left to distinguish the two arts in terms of martial systems are preferential use of techniques and strategies. Nothing concrete because both have scope to be used in different ways; ways that mimick the other.

So what exactly is it intrinsic to this art and not justva function of training and objective that makes one superior to the other?

I dont understand how you dont get such a simple principle.

If you train a dumb method. And this is any dumb method for any task you are far less likely to achieve that task than if you train a sensible method.

Breast stroke is for example a dumb method for swimming. If you were in a race and you did breast stroke you are probably going to loose that race. If you have fallen out of your boat and decided to breast stroke home you will probably die.

The idea that somone does breast strok and is slower and crapper than everybody else is not the fault of the training or the individual. It is because he is doing brea

 

[DaveB]

I dont understand how you dont get such a simple principle.

If you train a dumb method. And this is any dumb method for any task you are far less likely to achieve that task than if you train a sensible method.

Breast stroke is for example a dumb method for swimming. If you were in a race and you did breast stroke you are probably going to loose that race. If you have fallen out of your boat and decided to breast stroke home you will probably die.

The idea that somone does breast strok and is slower and crapper than everybody else is not the fault of the training or the individual. It is because he is doing breast stroke.

Not all systems are created equal.

All of which I agree with except that in terms of fighting arts I am yet to be convinced that for the mechanical inefficiencies I've seen I do not believe they are going to be the deciding factor in 99 out of 100 fights. How you train is a much much bigger deal.

This thread about Tkd lists a bunch of "flaws" which, if they exist at all, are exclusively training related. The vast majority of the complaints against any given art are training related and training can be changed.

A martial art is it's principles precisely because you can adapt a principle to a given situation.

Find an art with unadaptable principles and I'll concede it's a crappy martial art.

 

[Dirty Dog]

¨
No. I know that forms are only intended for the beginner and intermediate students. When at an advanced level, the practitioner moves freely. That does not however negate the fact that high quality boxing defence is lacking in TKD.

Completely untrue. After 45 years I still find benefit to practicing forms. If I ever decide I have nothing further to learn from forms, it's probably time for me to retire.

 

[DaveB]

¨
No. I know that forms are only intended for the beginner and intermediate students. When at an advanced level, the practitioner moves freely. That does not however negate the fact that high quality boxing defence is lacking in TKD.

See this is another case of you misquoting some idea you read in some forum as if it's God's law. The roots of your impressions are so transparently not any kind of personal development or training. Your cup truly does runneth over.

 

[DaveB]

I dont understand how you dont get such a simple principle.

If you train a dumb method. And this is any dumb method for any task you are far less likely to achieve that task than if you train a sensible method.

And here is the crux of the issue. You want to be the arbiter of what is a "dumb method" despite having no valid way to test any of it.

 

[DaveB]

I dont understand how you dont get such a simple principle.

If you train a dumb method. And this is any dumb method for any task you are far less likely to achieve that task than if you train a sensible method.

And here is the crux of the issue. You want to be the arbiter of what is a "dumb method" despite having no valid way to test any of it.

 

[Axiom]

Completely untrue. After 45 years I still find benefit to practicing forms. If I ever decide I have nothing further to learn from forms, it's probably time for me to retire.

I'm sure you do, but this was about how forms relate to sparring in a direct way, not indirect. They were never intended to be taken literally. It's a bit like teaching certain concepts by exaggeration. It is no different from how boxers teach beginners, and pros later abandon some of those principles because they were meant to teach the student basic things.

 

[Axiom]

And let's not forget that forms were never intended to be applied against trained fighters either. Anko Itosu (I believe it was) said as much. This makes very much sense from how they are choreographed.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Breast stroke is for example a dumb method for swimming. If you were in a race and you did breast stroke you are probably going to loose that race.

Unless you happen to be in a race where breast stroke is the method chosen for the race.

 

[drop bear]

In the case of Taekwondo as a system. The system is fine; the practitioner is lacking. You might want to not put words in my mouth.

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You are really not getting what a circular argument is are you?

Look I am right. If you think I am wrong you don't understand my point.

 

[drop bear]

Unless you happen to be in a race where breast stroke is the method chosen for the race.

Correct. But still doesn't change my point. I then can't do freestyle and achieve a better result and all systems still are not equal.